Hi Ben, I've been using a Purism laptop for a few years now. Solid buy, pricy but 100 % worth it. No issues with hinges or else. I've considered their phone and I've found reviews that made it clear it's not a powerful option. Alternatives to be considered ? The Volla phones ? https://volla.online/en/index.html It has multiboot (!) so you can have fun distro hoping between Ubuntu Touch, VollaOS (a modified fork of Lineageos), Mobian or else. I have a Volla phone, the X21. It's an heavy brick, but does the job pretty well. My wife has the 22, great, but a bit sluggish. The X23, I've been told, is good. It's marketed as "rugged" but is not seriously strong (I received report of someone scratching the glass through his jeans !). The customer support is slow and not impressive.Other options with Free OS ? The Pro1 X https://www.fxtec.com/smartphones/pro1x if you have deep pockets. I don't know how better the pinephone got, but I suspect it's still not intended as a daily driver. I you're interested in environmentally friendly phones, with replaceable batteries, Fairphone. The Fairphone 4 is offered with /e/OS, another Lineageos Fork. https://shop.fairphone.com//fairphone-4-e-operating-system Nitrokey also sells refurbished Google Pixel phones with GrapheneOS on it. It's the most secured Lineageos fork at the moment. https://shop.nitrokey.com/shop/product/nitrophone-3a-506?search=nitrophone Pricy. That's my take on this :). Julien Danglard Instructional designer / Professeur de français -- Tutanota respects your privacy and it's for free, try it ! https://tutanota.com 17 nov. 2023, 11:30 de free-software-melb-request@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au:
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1. Re: Anyone tried Purism's Librem 5 phone or Librem 11 tablet? (Les Kitchen)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 00:04:43 +1100 From: "Les Kitchen" <ljk+fsm@ljk.id.au> Subject: [free-software-melb] Re: Anyone tried Purism's Librem 5 phone or Librem 11 tablet? To: "Melbourne Free Software Interest Group" <free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au> Message-ID: <933a88bc-e94d-478a-8eed-32d675015b2c@app.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
Hi Ben (and other Free Software folk)!
On Wed, Nov 15, 2023, at 21:57, Ben Sturmfels via Free-software-melb wrote:
Has anyone out there bought any of the Purism devices, especially the phone (Librem 5) or the tablet (Librem 11)? I'm interested to hear your experiences.
I've had a Purism Librem-5 for just over a year (after a very long pre-ordering wait, about three years). I've had a Pine64 Pinephone for about three years, so I can comment based on experience with both. And I got a Pinephone Pro about a year ago. I've also owned a succession of Librem-13 laptops, and a Pinebook Pro laptop, so I can probably make some general comments about Pine64 versus Purism, but I'll focus on the phones.
I haven't been able to use any of them (yet) as my everyday phone (that's an old Google Pixel phone, which won't be usable for much longer). Mainly for need of Android / F-Droid apps. However, last year I took my Pinephone (henceforth PP) to carry my travel-sim on my big overseas trip, and on this year's trip I took along my Librem-5 (henceforth L5). Both worked fine for phonecalls, SMS, data tethering, web-browsing, etc., and having a real Linux computer in your pocket. I also usually carry either my L5 or PP with me when I'm out and about, to have a real Linux computer with me.
Another thing I'll say is that what I say here is mainly based on my own experience. Maybe for some of the problems I've encountered there are fixes I haven't been able to find or apply yet. Maybe there are problems that I haven't encountered in my usage, which other people might encounter. With a lot of this somewhat "experimental" hardware, some time investment is required of the user.
My old Galaxy S5 with replaceable battery and headphone jack is still going strong but is about to be made obsolete by the 3G shutdown coming in the next few months.
Well the good news is that all three phones, the L5, the PP, and the Pinephone Pro (henceforth PPPro) are good in those respects: replaceable battery, headphone jack, 4G. I can verify that the L5 and PP support VoLTE out of the box, and I expect that the PPPro does too, though I haven't (yet) used it much for phonecalls.
They all have hardware kill-switches for the radios, camera, microphone. They all have the cellular modem isolated from the CPU and RAM, accessed only via USB. All have plastic backs which you can pry off to get to the innards. All are designed to be repairable.
Now for the differences:
But before that I'll say that you can better understand the differences between the phones with some idea of the differences between the companies: Pine64 is basically a hardware company, which relies on the community to produce the software, apps and operating systems, and is still mainly aiming at enthusiasts. Purism is trying to be a complete solution for ordinary consumers (and largely succeeding), developing apps and their own PureOS operating system (Debian based). In a way, Purism is aiming to be the Apple of Free Software (in a good way), in providing a complete user setup. Neither approach is totally better than the other; they're just different. And of course, the phones using free software, there's a lot of cross-pollination.
One way in which this shows up is with power consumption. I'm not an expert on this, but it seems that Pine64 manage the suspend states of the CPU better. Even though the L5 has a bigger battery, it's more power hungery. When I first got my L5, on a fully charged battery it couldn't even sit idle overnight without draining the battery and shutting down, while the PP could sit for several days idle on a charge. Since then, Purism have got suspend-to-RAM working pretty reliably. So the L5 can now pretty much last a whole day of light use on a battery charge, or overnight idle. But the PP is still stronger in this respect.
I'll compare mostly the PP and the L5, with which I have most experience. The PPPro has very attractive specs, faster CPU, 4GB RAM, 128GB on board memory, USB-3, gorilla glass screen. Slightly thicker body than the PP, but otherwise similar, and compatible with PP add-ons, like the keyboard case. But last time I checked, some things, like the camera, weren't yet supported by software. I expect this will change in time.
Now to the other differences between the PP and the L5:
1. The L5 is much more solidly built, with gorilla-glass screen. My PP's screen has got scuffed up a bit with use (though not enough to significantly affect viewing), and has developed a small (so far inconsequential) crack — but maybe that was just bad luck of being pressed against something while in its case. But then my L5's screen is usually a bit discoloured at the edges — I think from heat from the metal frame.
2. Both have 3GB RAM and 32GB onboard flash storage (and µ-SD card slot). The L5 has a somewhat faster CPU, but not hugely so. I've mostly noticed it in scrolling webpages, which on the PP can be a bit sluggish (though this might also be a GPU thing). In each of my L5 and PP I have a (nominal) 256GB µ-SD card with encrypted btrfs filesystem.
3. The L5's cellular modem is on a separate circuit board (I think with M2 connector). This means you can have a choice of modem, for different regions. But that is one of the contributors to the L5's thicker body and higher power consumption. There was some talk about the L5 being able to support 5G in future, but it seems that's not technically possible, because the underlying circuitry can't (inter alia) deliver enough power for 5G. The PP's (and PPPro's) modems are soldered onto the main board — both phones access the modem via USB. So untrusted firmware on the modem can't hijack your CPU and RAM, as is possible on most phones, with integrated modems.
4. The L5's battery is bigger and thicker (to support the higher power requirements), and AFAIK is a bespoke battery. The PP battery is thinner, and is the same as on one of the older Samsung phones (I think S7), so there are plenty of third-party replacements available. (I can give you the part number if you ask. I got mine from Betterbatt.) Batteries on both phones are easily replaceable by prying off the plastic back cover. The L5 battery is a tight fit: you need to pull on the tape tab to get it out. The PP original battery is a snug fit, but you can get it out with a fingernail. But the third-party replacement battery is a tight fit, and I needed the suction-cup puller from my toolkit to get it out.
5. The L5's case is much thicker than the PP's (to accommodate the modem board and bigger battery), and overall the L5 is much heavier (in part also from the metal frame).
6. The L5's hardware kill-switches are sliders conveniently located on the side of the case, recessed to avoid accidental operation. The PP's hardware kill-switches are DIP switches, to access which you have to pry off the plastic back. Given that for most people operating the kill-switches won't happen often, it's not so important that they be easily accessible.
7. The L5 takes a nano-SIM. That, and the µ-SD card, go into a slider tray on the side of the case. One gotcha is that my SIM-eject tool wasn't long enough to operate the L5's tray. I ended up scratching the tray a bit trying to get it open with other tools, until I tried the (extra-long) SIM-eject tool that came with the L5. The L5 also has a slot for one of those secure-ID cards inside the battery compartment, which caused me some confusion at first, because it superficially looks like an extra µ-SD slot.
The PP takes a μ-SIM. To access that and the μ-SD, you have to pry off the back and take out the battery.
If you want to put in a nano-SIM (which most phones use these days) then you have to use an adapter. Using most adapters (like salvaged from your tri-SIM package) is fraught because the nano-SIM easily slips out of the adapter as you're inserting it or taking it out, running the risk of damaging the contact pins. My PP came with an adapter that has a plastic film across, which better holds the nano-SIM in place. (Maybe you could achieve the same effect with a carefully cut and applied piece of sticky tape.)
If you have a SIM just for your PP, and just break it down to micro-SIM size, then it's not a problem. But if you're swapping SIMs from other phones which take nano-SIM, then this is quite a pain.
8. The PP, if you buy the "Convergence" edition, comes with a bar with a pigtail that plugs into the PP's USB-C port. It provides a USB-C port (through which you can power everything), two USB-A ports (only USB-2), an HDMI port, and an ethernet port (gigabit, I think, but limited to USB-2 speeds). The idea is that you can plug in a monitor, mouse, and keyboard, and use your PP as a low-powered but convenient desktop machine. The PPPro comes with a similar bar, but with USB-3. You can get such a bar for the L5, which also has an SDcard and a μ-SDcard reader as well, but you have to purchase it separately, and I have had some problems with mine, in that sometimes the cards are not recognized. I think this might be power-related (see next).
9. There's a bit more power-related weirdness with the L5 than with the PP. It's a known problem that the L5 won't boot (or even charge) if the battery charge is too low (even when on external power), and there's an advertised funny dance to boot up in this situation, to get the machine running again and the battery charging. Myself, recently I've also found at times that my L5 won't boot, even when the battery has plenty of charge. I've found that if I take out the battery for a few seconds, my L5 will try to reboot when I put the battery back in, but fail. After that, though, if I connect external power, it will boot OK from the power-switch.
I've also noticed recently that my L5 will lose its cellular Internet connection, and the only way I've found to get it back it to reboot. Maybe there's a better fix, but I haven't had time to research.
Also, the L5 is a bit more fussy about power supply than the PP. The L5 is happy on good PD, but seems to treat everything else as ordinary USB and charges very slowly (usually too slowly to overcome power usage, so it never charges.)
10. The PP can boot off the µ-SD card, which is very handy if you want to try out different operating systems. In particular, there's a program called JumpDrive, which exposes the internal eMMC memory as if it were a USB flash-drive, which you can use to reflash internals. There's also a variant bootloader, Towboot, which lets you select where to boot from at startup, by pressing one of the volume buttons. I don't think there's stuff like that available for the L5.
11. The PPP (and PPPro) have pogo-pins on the back inside the cover, which allow interfacing with various addons, like keyboard case with extra battery (not without some problems), wireless charging, LORAN.
12. While it's possible to run various operating systems on the L5, I've used only Purism's (Debian-based) PureOS, and I think that's what most people seem to do. The mostly standard OS for PP is Manjaro, but I'm now mostly using Mobian (also Debian based) with Phosh. Because PureOS also uses Phosh on the L5, the user experience is pretty nearly identical on the two machines, the PP being a bit slower. Both PureOS and Mobian support disk encryption at installation time.
I guess my impression, based on some experience, is that the L5 is a heavier, fancier, much more expensive phone, with some glitches. The PP is less solid, a bit slower, but a more reliable and much cheaper phone. Overall, I'd say the PP is better value.
Russell Coker has some posts about the L5 on his blog, which are worth reading: https://etbe.coker.com.au/
There's also some extra info at places like: - https://forums.puri.sm/t/comparing-specs-of-upcoming-linux-phones/6827 - https://amosbbatto.wordpress.com/2020/08/25/comparing-linux-phones/
My main concern with the Librem 5 is not having the F-Droid ecosystem - it's pretty handy having access to apps like AntennaPod (podcasts), OSMAnd (navigation), Conversations (XMPP chat), K-9 mail and NewPipe (YouTube). I realised of course that I can just keep my Galaxy S5 and continue using it via wifi.
One of my next jobs is to try to get Waydoid working. The Waydroid install script doesn't recognize PureOS, so it's going to be a matter of figuring out what the script does, and adapting it for my L5. And I haven't had time even to try to install Waydroid on Mobian on my PP, but I've heard that people have done it. With Waydroid it should be possible to run those really necessary Android or F-droid apps on either PP or L5. All it takes is time....
Oh, about other Purism stuff: I've had mixed experience with my Librem-13 laptops. There was a minor annoyance that the keyboard sent wrong keycodes. There was a fix in PureOS, but not in plain Debian, which I chose to run in preference. That required some work-arounds for a while, until the fixes got up-streamed. The main serious problems, though: My first one died after about a year, and just wouldn't boot any more. After trying some things suggested by the Purism people (who were helpful) I sent it back for repair under warranty, and Purism just replaced it (meaning I lost all my stickers, but on the positive side I got an upgrade from Librem-13v3 to Librem-13v4). That second machine ran well until a hinge mount broke about a year later. That also got replaced under warranty. (Luckily I'd paid extra at purchase time to get the extended, three-year warranty.) And only a few months ago (while I was travelling) the hinge mount on this third machine also broke. This time the break seems to have affected the power switch, so I can't power it up. But then it once started up by itself when put away in its case, getting very hot until I luckily noticed the muffled noise of the fan running wildly. Then I had to open up the case and disconnect the battery. I still have to chase up with Purism about the possibility of repair, because it's now well and truly out of warranty. Just a matter of finding the time. At least on the trip I had my L5 as a fallback Linux machine — I was able to plug in that "convergence" bar, with my little USB chording keyboard, and use its SD-card reader still to copy and process photos off my camera, and do my Emacs Org-Mode stuff.
Aside from those woes, the Librem-13 was a very nice machine (now superseded by the Librem-14). But it looks like they have a real problem with their hinge design. Having had hinge problems with other laptops, I'm always very careful with the opening and closing. I think having good hinges is one of the most important design features for a laptop.
On the other side: my Pinebook Pro is a lesser machine, but has worked reliably all along, especially good after the NVMe upgrade. My only gripe is that the only well supported operating system is Manjaro, which distro lacks some of the packages I need.
I'm typing this on my relatively new MNT Reform — but that's a whole 'nother story.
Well, I've said much more than I thought I would. I hope this is useful, even if a long read.
— Smiles, Les.
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