Hi all, I've been lurking on this list for quite a while now, because it is a topic that interests me. I would come to some of the meetings, but I am in Adelaide so that somewhat precludes it. :-( Anyhow I have an issue that concerns me and I'd be interested in other people's experiences in this area. It seems an increasing number of schools, even primary schools, are requiring parents to purchase and support an iPad or similar closed proprietary technology as part of their day to day education. Even state/public schools are in on the act here, and it rapidly seems to be becoming normal that the cost of a public education in Australia is $600 per child to Apple Inc on a semi-annual basis. This situation feels totally wrong to me. eg. See these threads a few days ago on the linux-sa list: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/pipermail/linuxsa/2014-November/096770.html http://www.linuxsa.org.au/pipermail/linuxsa/2014-November/096782.html My sons' school is next on the bandwagon it seems, more information here: http://www.craigburn.sa.edu.au/files/BYOD%20iPads/innovative_learning_prgram... Regardless of the merits of using a mobile computing device for daily learning - and I see both pros and cons here - the requirement to provide a specific device from a single company and tied into that corporation's highly proprietary and restrictive platform and license terms is in my opinion potentially disastrous. It also puts me in a very difficult position as my beliefs and principles preclude me from purchasing such a device, but then I already have 2 children and soon a 3rd at the school, and clearly I also do not want to disadvantage them in any way. Although the program is stated to be entirely optional it is abundantly clear that this is not necessarily going to be true, nor is it likely to remain true once an accepted norm is established. eg. http://www.mamamia.com.au/parenting/bring-your-own-device/ IMO this latest threat to users' computing freedom and thus all of our futures is potentially one of the most damaging I have seen for a very long time, much more so than government legislation. If the entire education system is geared to binding children and their families into a single vendor's platform, and teaching them all to be perfect consumers, then the war would be lost. I'd be interested in any experiences and opinions others have on this as I intend to put a submission to the school explaining why I think they are making a bad decision. Cheers, Martin
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 03:41:36PM +1030, Martin Ebourne wrote:
Hi all,
I've been lurking on this list for quite a while now, because it is a topic that interests me. I would come to some of the meetings, but I am in Adelaide so that somewhat precludes it. :-(
Anyhow I have an issue that concerns me and I'd be interested in other people's experiences in this area.
It seems an increasing number of schools, even primary schools, are requiring parents to purchase and support an iPad or similar closed proprietary technology as part of their day to day education. Even state/public schools are in on the act here, and it rapidly seems to be becoming normal that the cost of a public education in Australia is $600 per child to Apple Inc on a semi-annual basis. This situation feels totally wrong to me.
eg. See these threads a few days ago on the linux-sa list:
http://www.linuxsa.org.au/pipermail/linuxsa/2014-November/096770.html http://www.linuxsa.org.au/pipermail/linuxsa/2014-November/096782.html
My sons' school is next on the bandwagon it seems, more information here:
http://www.craigburn.sa.edu.au/files/BYOD%20iPads/innovative_learning_prgram...
Regardless of the merits of using a mobile computing device for daily learning - and I see both pros and cons here - the requirement to provide a specific device from a single company and tied into that corporation's highly proprietary and restrictive platform and license terms is in my opinion potentially disastrous.
It also puts me in a very difficult position as my beliefs and principles preclude me from purchasing such a device, but then I already have 2 children and soon a 3rd at the school, and clearly I also do not want to disadvantage them in any way. Although the program is stated to be entirely optional it is abundantly clear that this is not necessarily going to be true, nor is it likely to remain true once an accepted norm is established. eg.
http://www.mamamia.com.au/parenting/bring-your-own-device/
IMO this latest threat to users' computing freedom and thus all of our futures is potentially one of the most damaging I have seen for a very long time, much more so than government legislation. If the entire education system is geared to binding children and their families into a single vendor's platform, and teaching them all to be perfect consumers, then the war would be lost.
I'd be interested in any experiences and opinions others have on this as I intend to put a submission to the school explaining why I think they are making a bad decision.
Cheers, Martin
A friend of mine recently went through a similar situation with a state primary school Queensland: a BYOD (laptop) program where the only supported operating systems were Windows and Mac OS X. He corresponded with the principal and later, iirc, someone from the project team at Education Queensland (the gov't department). His experience was positive - the principal and department were open to supporting other OSes and he was going to document the process of getting GNU+Linux laptops connected with the potential of officially supporting GNU+Linux in the future. The importance of positive communication - selling the benefits of a more heterogeneous computing environment that reduced financial burden on families and avoided vendor lock-in, and the credit it would be to the school community and staff - cannot be overstated. Unfortunately, in this case it seems that iBads specifically are being pushed, rather than the general "bring a laptop to school" initiative my friend dealt with. The proposal detailed in the letter is quite developed, but it seems that it is not yet a done deal. So what to do? Get communicating. Raise your concerns with the principal, deputy and senior leader (whatever that is). With other parents. With the department. In letters, newletters, at meetings, at information sessions. Start now (if you haven't already). Make people aware of the danger of user-subjugating devices and operating systems, and the harm of educating children in a homogeneous (monoculture) and proprietary computing environment. Suggest positive alternatives. Insist that a heterogeneous computing program is essential and that striving to provide this to students, when other schools are constraining the learning opportunities of their students by enforcing a proprietary, homogeneous computing environment, is truly the more innovative approach. Deconstruct the arguments in favour of the iPad: - The contradiction of "There are and should be multiple devices for learning" and "we nominate iPad as the core device" appearing in the same sentence. - "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable. - "Amazing selection of apps for content creation." Which ones are intended to be used for learning activities? If they can list some, are there alternatives or are they available on other tablets? If they cannot provide examples, there is no basis for the program. Procurement (or the requirement/suggestion for families to procure) must be based on specific requirements for learning activities. - "Easy use by students of all abilities including those with special needs". Citation needed (and one that provides comparison with other tablets/OSes). Well, those are the main suggestions I have for you, but please let us know how things go. I must again emphasise the importance of positive communication, suggesting practical alternatives and elucidating the positive outcomes for students *and* those willing to break the mould and innovate to achieve these outcomes. Cheers, Fraser
On Tue, 2014-11-25 at 16:06 +1000, Fraser Tweedale wrote:
A friend of mine recently went through a similar situation with a state primary school Queensland: a BYOD (laptop) program where the only supported operating systems were Windows and Mac OS X. He corresponded with the principal and later, iirc, someone from the project team at Education Queensland (the gov't department).
His experience was positive - the principal and department were open to supporting other OSes and he was going to document the process of getting GNU+Linux laptops connected with the potential of officially supporting GNU+Linux in the future. The importance of positive communication - selling the benefits of a more heterogeneous computing environment that reduced financial burden on families and avoided vendor lock-in, and the credit it would be to the school community and staff - cannot be overstated.
Thanks for the info and ideas. I am certainly going to take this up directly with the school leaders, what would really help me are examples of other schools which have been through the same process and made more informed decisions. Concrete examples including documentation of the arguments and approaches made would be especially helpful. I am sure that others have already written better proposals and evaluations than I would be able to, having to start from scratch would certainly hinder my progress. If anyone has pointers to such materials (or pointers to pointers to such materials, etc) that would be greatly received. I started with the FSF of course, and they encouragingly have a section for education: http://www.gnu.org/education/ Alas it seems mostly focussed on choice of software on regular platforms, it seems they have not observed or addressed this new BYOD trend in schools, and in particular I don't think there is a lot here that the regular public would relate to the school proposal. Cheers, Martin
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
My sons' school is next on the bandwagon it seems, more information here:
http://www.craigburn.sa.edu.au/files/BYOD%20iPads/innovative_learning_prg ram_craigburn.pdf
The "Managing and operating ICT" line seems to go against using the most locked down device on the market that can't be managed by the user. http://etbe.coker.com.au/2013/02/11/phone-tablet-sizes/ Some time ago I researched the various ways of holding a phone or tablet and what sizes might be best for different ages. Note that I assume that the ratio of finger length to height in my body is the same as that for all ages, while that assumption is probably inaccurate it should do as a rough approximation. For use of mobile devices there are various times and uses that suit different ways of using them (EG 2 hand use works well in a classroom but not on a bus). Therefore to cater to all ages a wide range of sizes should be available. The range of Android phones and tablets covers everything from 4" to 12" screen size with no gaps of more than about 0.5". Apple just doesn't have the same range. Apple devices are significantly more expensive. Has the new lock technology to prevent theft been added to all the iPads? If not then it seems like a bad idea to have young kids carrying around expensive items that can be re-sold. http://www.friendshipcircle.org/blog/2012/09/04/14-special-needs-android-app... on-google-play/ The claim that the iPad is good for "special needs" kids, but the above URL is one of many with links to Android apps - presumably things have got even better over the last 2 years. Perhaps it would be good to find out what "special needs" they are referring to and compare the devices on that basis.
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
As someone actually responsible for deploying iPads in primary schools I feel like I should comment. I'm going to present a couple of arguments for iPads, without disagreeing with the closed ecosystem being bad. I believe an open free device is a much better choice than a semi-closed ecosystem where one must pass all software through apple without the choice of adding alternative software repositories ala Android. Totally agree. I really want to deploy Android tablets, but for a couple of reasons they are just not ready.
From my perspective, school is about teaching kids skills they will use in real life, and getting as much useable technology in the hands of children as I can. I don't want to deploy something for purely political reasons, I want to deploy something because it is the best tool for the job.
To go over a couple of the previous arguments. - "Amazing selection of apps for content creation." Which ones are
intended to be used for learning activities? If they can list some, are there alternatives or are they available on other tablets? If they cannot provide examples, there is no basis for the program. Procurement (or the requirement/suggestion for families to procure) must be based on specific requirements for learning activities.
I've been on conferences where teachers talk for days about all the apps they are using in their classroom and the ways they are using them for educational outcomes. There are just so many apps available. Here's a link to multiple pages of specific examples. Pick any 10, and see if you can find equivalents on android. The situation is getting better (more apps on android than before). But it's not there yet in the educational arena. http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/ipads_for_learning_g...
- "Easy use by students of all abilities including those with special needs". Citation needed (and one that provides comparison with other tablets/OSes).
The accessibility features of iOS are quite extensive. I couldn't begin to iterate through the features, but one that comes to mind is single app mode, which is great for locking a specific app to view, and can be switched on and off instantly from a server. Also, they have many many things to help people with motor difficulties, blindness, hearing difficultly, colour difficulties etc. I could go on but it's well documented by sources below: https://www.apple.com/au/accessibility/ios/ http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/DEECD%20iPad%20suppo...
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other
tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
Citation needed. Show me a small, light, android tablet with decent battery life including standby power. Apple make a small range of devices, but they are premium devices and usually the smallest / lightest / fastest in their category at time of release. Plenty of comparisons on the web. I can tell you that I had a stack of iPad Airs sitting around in sleep mode for 3 months due to an unfortunate hold up with software deployment (If I'm being balanced, I blame apple for this!).. At the end of the 3 months, these iPads that were fresh out of the box still had a charge. I also have just sold an iPad 2, which I used every day for hours and charged roughly 3 times a week, and now have an iPad Air 2, same usage but with 4G and still the same battery life (10-15 hours a charge). Meanwhile I've personally owned a PIPO android tablet I got from Hong Kong, and a Ainol tablet, both would drain in less than a week with no usage. To be fair they were cheap tablets, but I also have an Acer tablet at one of the schools based on an NVIDIA tegra chipset, with the same problem. If you find a solid example make sure you compare it to the price of Apple's iPad offering in schools, which is about $480. Wireless network support. Another big one. It's really hard to get android devices to work with certificate based authentication on wireless networks. I know, I've tried. Usually they at least require a passcode (not good for shared devices) and are quite flaky in the implementation. Software deployment / Device remediation: Another big one. From a sysadmin's perspective: I need to be able to push all configuration over USB, through a USB hub, with 30 tablets connected at once. I need to be able to push software from a central source, update it wirelessly, and respond quickly to teacher's requests for new software. Apple let me do all these things without touching the device. The software will just update in the background. If the alternative devices don't do this, then you need to budget support hours in with the cost of the device, because each school will have a fixed amount of support available to them in the form of tech time. At the end of the day, I like both OSes (android and iOS), and I would happily support either given the resources, but schools don't have unlimited resources so you have to pick the best tool for the job... On 25 November 2014 at 23:17, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
My sons' school is next on the bandwagon it seems, more information here:
http://www.craigburn.sa.edu.au/files/BYOD%20iPads/innovative_learning_prg
ram_craigburn.pdf
The "Managing and operating ICT" line seems to go against using the most locked down device on the market that can't be managed by the user.
http://etbe.coker.com.au/2013/02/11/phone-tablet-sizes/
Some time ago I researched the various ways of holding a phone or tablet and what sizes might be best for different ages. Note that I assume that the ratio of finger length to height in my body is the same as that for all ages, while that assumption is probably inaccurate it should do as a rough approximation.
For use of mobile devices there are various times and uses that suit different ways of using them (EG 2 hand use works well in a classroom but not on a bus). Therefore to cater to all ages a wide range of sizes should be available. The range of Android phones and tablets covers everything from 4" to 12" screen size with no gaps of more than about 0.5". Apple just doesn't have the same range.
Apple devices are significantly more expensive. Has the new lock technology to prevent theft been added to all the iPads? If not then it seems like a bad idea to have young kids carrying around expensive items that can be re-sold.
http://www.friendshipcircle.org/blog/2012/09/04/14-special-needs-android-app... on-google-play/
The claim that the iPad is good for "special needs" kids, but the above URL is one of many with links to Android apps - presumably things have got even better over the last 2 years. Perhaps it would be good to find out what "special needs" they are referring to and compare the devices on that basis.
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
-- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ _______________________________________________ Free-software-melb mailing list Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au
http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/free-software-m...
Free Software Melbourne home page: http://www.freesoftware.asn.au/melb/
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:13:39PM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
As someone actually responsible for deploying iPads in primary schools I feel like I should comment.
I'm going to present a couple of arguments for iPads, without disagreeing with the closed ecosystem being bad. I believe an open free device is a much better choice than a semi-closed ecosystem where one must pass all software through apple without the choice of adding alternative software repositories ala Android. Totally agree.
I really want to deploy Android tablets, but for a couple of reasons they are just not ready.
From my perspective, school is about teaching kids skills they will use in real life, and getting as much useable technology in the hands of children as I can. I don't want to deploy something for purely political reasons, I want to deploy something because it is the best tool for the job.
Thanks for your comments, Noah. Interesting to hear an inside view. It is disappointing that Apple holds advantage over competitors particularly in the deployment/administration aspects you outlined. (Side note: I work in IdM and PKI and would be interested to know more about your requirements and experiences with iOS and Android. Do you have any resources?) Of concern to me is the restriction in learning opportunities caused by a homogeneous environment of proprietary devices, or (to take a more cynical view) that students may become dependent on Apple-flavoured technology, fearing to leave the walled garden (or not even realising they are in one!) It is claimed that our kids are more tech-savvy than previous generations - so let's ensure that they learn and become masters over this technology, not subjugated by it. The freedom of our children is at stake, so as a society we need to be less "pragmatic" and more principled in our decisions about technology in schools. Technical hurdles must be overcome (and can be). Cheers, Fraser
families to procure) must be based on specific requirements for learning activities.
I've been on conferences where teachers talk for days about all the apps they are using in their classroom and the ways they are using them for educational outcomes. There are just so many apps available. Here's a link to multiple pages of specific examples. Pick any 10, and see if you can find equivalents on android. The situation is getting better (more apps on android than before). But it's not there yet in the educational arena.
http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/ipads_for_learning_g...
- "Easy use by students of all abilities including those with special needs". Citation needed (and one that provides comparison with other tablets/OSes).
The accessibility features of iOS are quite extensive. I couldn't begin to iterate through the features, but one that comes to mind is single app mode, which is great for locking a specific app to view, and can be switched on and off instantly from a server. Also, they have many many things to help people with motor difficulties, blindness, hearing difficultly, colour difficulties etc. I could go on but it's well documented by sources below:
https://www.apple.com/au/accessibility/ios/
http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/DEECD%20iPad%20suppo...
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other
tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
Citation needed. Show me a small, light, android tablet with decent battery life including standby power. Apple make a small range of devices, but they are premium devices and usually the smallest / lightest / fastest in their category at time of release. Plenty of comparisons on the web. I can tell you that I had a stack of iPad Airs sitting around in sleep mode for 3 months due to an unfortunate hold up with software deployment (If I'm being balanced, I blame apple for this!).. At the end of the 3 months, these iPads that were fresh out of the box still had a charge. I also have just sold an iPad 2, which I used every day for hours and charged roughly 3 times a week, and now have an iPad Air 2, same usage but with 4G and still the same battery life (10-15 hours a charge).
Meanwhile I've personally owned a PIPO android tablet I got from Hong Kong, and a Ainol tablet, both would drain in less than a week with no usage. To be fair they were cheap tablets, but I also have an Acer tablet at one of the schools based on an NVIDIA tegra chipset, with the same problem.
If you find a solid example make sure you compare it to the price of Apple's iPad offering in schools, which is about $480.
Wireless network support. Another big one. It's really hard to get android devices to work with certificate based authentication on wireless networks. I know, I've tried. Usually they at least require a passcode (not good for shared devices) and are quite flaky in the implementation.
Software deployment / Device remediation: Another big one. From a sysadmin's perspective:
I need to be able to push all configuration over USB, through a USB hub, with 30 tablets connected at once.
I need to be able to push software from a central source, update it wirelessly, and respond quickly to teacher's requests for new software. Apple let me do all these things without touching the device. The software will just update in the background.
If the alternative devices don't do this, then you need to budget support hours in with the cost of the device, because each school will have a fixed amount of support available to them in the form of tech time.
At the end of the day, I like both OSes (android and iOS), and I would happily support either given the resources, but schools don't have unlimited resources so you have to pick the best tool for the job...
On 25 November 2014 at 23:17, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
My sons' school is next on the bandwagon it seems, more information here:
http://www.craigburn.sa.edu.au/files/BYOD%20iPads/innovative_learning_prg
ram_craigburn.pdf
The "Managing and operating ICT" line seems to go against using the most locked down device on the market that can't be managed by the user.
http://etbe.coker.com.au/2013/02/11/phone-tablet-sizes/
Some time ago I researched the various ways of holding a phone or tablet and what sizes might be best for different ages. Note that I assume that the ratio of finger length to height in my body is the same as that for all ages, while that assumption is probably inaccurate it should do as a rough approximation.
For use of mobile devices there are various times and uses that suit different ways of using them (EG 2 hand use works well in a classroom but not on a bus). Therefore to cater to all ages a wide range of sizes should be available. The range of Android phones and tablets covers everything from 4" to 12" screen size with no gaps of more than about 0.5". Apple just doesn't have the same range.
Apple devices are significantly more expensive. Has the new lock technology to prevent theft been added to all the iPads? If not then it seems like a bad idea to have young kids carrying around expensive items that can be re-sold.
http://www.friendshipcircle.org/blog/2012/09/04/14-special-needs-android-app... on-google-play/
The claim that the iPad is good for "special needs" kids, but the above URL is one of many with links to Android apps - presumably things have got even better over the last 2 years. Perhaps it would be good to find out what "special needs" they are referring to and compare the devices on that basis.
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
-- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ _______________________________________________ Free-software-melb mailing list Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au
http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/free-software-m...
Free Software Melbourne home page: http://www.freesoftware.asn.au/melb/
_______________________________________________ Free-software-melb mailing list Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/free-software-m...
Free Software Melbourne home page: http://www.freesoftware.asn.au/melb/
I hear the walled garden argument a lot and it's definitely true in a financial sense with apps - people won't move away from iOS because they have spent $X on iTunes apps. As far as in a school environment there is an important distinction around who purchased the apps - If it was the school, and the kids only have access to it until they leave, then there's not much lock in from a financial standpoint. (For example, shared iPads that stay in a trolley at school) Personal devices yeah there is lock in because they load up a lot of apps at home.. However, I'm not really convinced that the alternatives are any less lock-in, because the android apps you purchase only work on android devices.. So what's the difference? If you move away to another platform (eg windows tablet, iOS, Firefox OS?) you still have to spend money on apps.. Also, google do a lot of lock-in to Google Play, because they monetize the information they collect in your google account, thus requiring it for a lot of services on the phone which I would argue is something that apple don't do as much. You can choose not to use your iTunes account for anything other than app download if you want to. You don't have to use it for maps / email / contact sync / calendar sync etc.. They use open standards for syncing such as CalDAV and CardDAV which require no contact with apple whatsoever.. What information are you asking with regard to idm and PKI? Do you want to know about MDM (mobile device management) or something else? On 18 December 2014 at 12:56, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:13:39PM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
As someone actually responsible for deploying iPads in primary schools I feel like I should comment.
I'm going to present a couple of arguments for iPads, without disagreeing with the closed ecosystem being bad. I believe an open free device is a much better choice than a semi-closed ecosystem where one must pass all software through apple without the choice of adding alternative software repositories ala Android. Totally agree.
I really want to deploy Android tablets, but for a couple of reasons they are just not ready.
From my perspective, school is about teaching kids skills they will use in real life, and getting as much useable technology in the hands of children as I can. I don't want to deploy something for purely political reasons, I want to deploy something because it is the best tool for the job.
Thanks for your comments, Noah. Interesting to hear an inside view. It is disappointing that Apple holds advantage over competitors particularly in the deployment/administration aspects you outlined.
(Side note: I work in IdM and PKI and would be interested to know more about your requirements and experiences with iOS and Android. Do you have any resources?)
Of concern to me is the restriction in learning opportunities caused by a homogeneous environment of proprietary devices, or (to take a more cynical view) that students may become dependent on Apple-flavoured technology, fearing to leave the walled garden (or not even realising they are in one!) It is claimed that our kids are more tech-savvy than previous generations - so let's ensure that they learn and become masters over this technology, not subjugated by it.
The freedom of our children is at stake, so as a society we need to be less "pragmatic" and more principled in our decisions about technology in schools. Technical hurdles must be overcome (and can be).
Cheers,
Fraser
families to procure) must be based on specific requirements for learning activities.
I've been on conferences where teachers talk for days about all the apps they are using in their classroom and the ways they are using them for educational outcomes. There are just so many apps available. Here's a link to multiple pages of specific examples. Pick any 10, and see if you can find equivalents on android. The situation is getting better (more apps on android than before). But it's not there yet in the educational arena.
http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/ipads_for_learning_g...
- "Easy use by students of all abilities including those with special needs". Citation needed (and one that provides comparison with other tablets/OSes).
The accessibility features of iOS are quite extensive. I couldn't begin
to
iterate through the features, but one that comes to mind is single app mode, which is great for locking a specific app to view, and can be switched on and off instantly from a server. Also, they have many many things to help people with motor difficulties, blindness, hearing difficultly, colour difficulties etc. I could go on but it's well documented by sources below:
http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/DEECD%20iPad%20suppo...
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other
tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things.
you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
Citation needed. Show me a small, light, android tablet with decent battery life including standby power. Apple make a small range of devices, but
are premium devices and usually the smallest / lightest / fastest in
category at time of release. Plenty of comparisons on the web. I can tell you that I had a stack of iPad Airs sitting around in sleep mode for 3 months due to an unfortunate hold up with software deployment (If I'm being balanced, I blame apple for this!).. At the end of the 3 months, these iPads that were fresh out of the box still had a charge. I also have just sold an iPad 2, which I used every day for hours and charged roughly 3 times a week, and now have an iPad Air 2, same usage but with 4G and still the same battery life (10-15 hours a charge).
Meanwhile I've personally owned a PIPO android tablet I got from Hong Kong, and a Ainol tablet, both would drain in less than a week with no usage. To be fair they were cheap tablets, but I also have an Acer tablet at one of the schools based on an NVIDIA tegra chipset, with the same problem.
If you find a solid example make sure you compare it to the price of Apple's iPad offering in schools, which is about $480.
Wireless network support. Another big one. It's really hard to get android devices to work with certificate based authentication on wireless networks. I know, I've tried. Usually they at least require a passcode (not good for shared devices) and are quite flaky in the implementation.
Software deployment / Device remediation: Another big one. From a sysadmin's perspective:
I need to be able to push all configuration over USB, through a USB hub, with 30 tablets connected at once.
I need to be able to push software from a central source, update it wirelessly, and respond quickly to teacher's requests for new software. Apple let me do all these things without touching the device. The software will just update in the background.
If the alternative devices don't do this, then you need to budget support hours in with the cost of the device, because each school will have a fixed amount of support available to them in the form of tech time.
At the end of the day, I like both OSes (android and iOS), and I would happily support either given the resources, but schools don't have unlimited resources so you have to pick the best tool for the job...
On 25 November 2014 at 23:17, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
My sons' school is next on the bandwagon it seems, more information here:
http://www.craigburn.sa.edu.au/files/BYOD%20iPads/innovative_learning_prg
ram_craigburn.pdf
The "Managing and operating ICT" line seems to go against using the most locked down device on the market that can't be managed by the user.
http://etbe.coker.com.au/2013/02/11/phone-tablet-sizes/
Some time ago I researched the various ways of holding a phone or
and what sizes might be best for different ages. Note that I assume that
ratio of finger length to height in my body is the same as that for all ages, while that assumption is probably inaccurate it should do as a rough approximation.
For use of mobile devices there are various times and uses that suit different ways of using them (EG 2 hand use works well in a classroom but not on a bus). Therefore to cater to all ages a wide range of sizes should be available. The range of Android phones and tablets covers everything from 4" to 12" screen size with no gaps of more than about 0.5". Apple just doesn't have the same range.
Apple devices are significantly more expensive. Has the new lock technology to prevent theft been added to all the iPads? If not then it seems
If they their tablet the like a
bad idea to have young kids carrying around expensive items that can be re-sold.
http://www.friendshipcircle.org/blog/2012/09/04/14-special-needs-android-app...
on-google-play/
The claim that the iPad is good for "special needs" kids, but the above URL is one of many with links to Android apps - presumably things have got even better over the last 2 years. Perhaps it would be good to find out what "special needs" they are referring to and compare the devices on that basis.
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
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On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 01:37:18PM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
I hear the walled garden argument a lot and it's definitely true in a financial sense with apps - people won't move away from iOS because they have spent $X on iTunes apps.
As far as in a school environment there is an important distinction around who purchased the apps - If it was the school, and the kids only have access to it until they leave, then there's not much lock in from a financial standpoint. (For example, shared iPads that stay in a trolley at school)
Personal devices yeah there is lock in because they load up a lot of apps at home..
However, I'm not really convinced that the alternatives are any less lock-in, because the android apps you purchase only work on android devices.. So what's the difference? If you move away to another platform (eg windows tablet, iOS, Firefox OS?) you still have to spend money on apps.. Also, google do a lot of lock-in to Google Play, because they monetize the information they collect in your google account, thus requiring it for a lot of services on the phone which I would argue is something that apple don't do as much. You can choose not to use your iTunes account for anything other than app download if you want to. You don't have to use it for maps / email / contact sync / calendar sync etc.. They use open standards for syncing such as CalDAV and CardDAV which require no contact with apple whatsoever..
I'm was thinking more along lines of being about to bypass app stores or official software channels and run on your device whatever software you wish. My understanding is that it's difficult on iOS. Platform differences imply that executables acquired from an Android app store aren't going to work on iOS (and vice-versa), so being able to take your apps between platforms wasn't really what I was getting at. (Nevertheless, sticking to free software would at least make that possible.)
What information are you asking with regard to idm and PKI? Do you want to know about MDM (mobile device management) or something else?
You mentioned certificate authentication for wireless networks. I would be interested to know about certificate profiles and provisioning/enrolment processes for mobile devices. (I am not sure whether this fall under MDM or not). Cheers, Fraser
On 18 December 2014 at 12:56, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 12:13:39PM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
As someone actually responsible for deploying iPads in primary schools I feel like I should comment.
I'm going to present a couple of arguments for iPads, without disagreeing with the closed ecosystem being bad. I believe an open free device is a much better choice than a semi-closed ecosystem where one must pass all software through apple without the choice of adding alternative software repositories ala Android. Totally agree.
I really want to deploy Android tablets, but for a couple of reasons they are just not ready.
From my perspective, school is about teaching kids skills they will use in real life, and getting as much useable technology in the hands of children as I can. I don't want to deploy something for purely political reasons, I want to deploy something because it is the best tool for the job.
Thanks for your comments, Noah. Interesting to hear an inside view. It is disappointing that Apple holds advantage over competitors particularly in the deployment/administration aspects you outlined.
(Side note: I work in IdM and PKI and would be interested to know more about your requirements and experiences with iOS and Android. Do you have any resources?)
Of concern to me is the restriction in learning opportunities caused by a homogeneous environment of proprietary devices, or (to take a more cynical view) that students may become dependent on Apple-flavoured technology, fearing to leave the walled garden (or not even realising they are in one!) It is claimed that our kids are more tech-savvy than previous generations - so let's ensure that they learn and become masters over this technology, not subjugated by it.
The freedom of our children is at stake, so as a society we need to be less "pragmatic" and more principled in our decisions about technology in schools. Technical hurdles must be overcome (and can be).
Cheers,
Fraser
families to procure) must be based on specific requirements for learning activities.
I've been on conferences where teachers talk for days about all the apps they are using in their classroom and the ways they are using them for educational outcomes. There are just so many apps available. Here's a link to multiple pages of specific examples. Pick any 10, and see if you can find equivalents on android. The situation is getting better (more apps on android than before). But it's not there yet in the educational arena.
http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/ipads_for_learning_g...
- "Easy use by students of all abilities including those with special needs". Citation needed (and one that provides comparison with other tablets/OSes).
The accessibility features of iOS are quite extensive. I couldn't begin
to
iterate through the features, but one that comes to mind is single app mode, which is great for locking a specific app to view, and can be switched on and off instantly from a server. Also, they have many many things to help people with motor difficulties, blindness, hearing difficultly, colour difficulties etc. I could go on but it's well documented by sources below:
http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/DEECD%20iPad%20suppo...
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other
tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things.
you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
Citation needed. Show me a small, light, android tablet with decent battery life including standby power. Apple make a small range of devices, but
are premium devices and usually the smallest / lightest / fastest in
category at time of release. Plenty of comparisons on the web. I can tell you that I had a stack of iPad Airs sitting around in sleep mode for 3 months due to an unfortunate hold up with software deployment (If I'm being balanced, I blame apple for this!).. At the end of the 3 months, these iPads that were fresh out of the box still had a charge. I also have just sold an iPad 2, which I used every day for hours and charged roughly 3 times a week, and now have an iPad Air 2, same usage but with 4G and still the same battery life (10-15 hours a charge).
Meanwhile I've personally owned a PIPO android tablet I got from Hong Kong, and a Ainol tablet, both would drain in less than a week with no usage. To be fair they were cheap tablets, but I also have an Acer tablet at one of the schools based on an NVIDIA tegra chipset, with the same problem.
If you find a solid example make sure you compare it to the price of Apple's iPad offering in schools, which is about $480.
Wireless network support. Another big one. It's really hard to get android devices to work with certificate based authentication on wireless networks. I know, I've tried. Usually they at least require a passcode (not good for shared devices) and are quite flaky in the implementation.
Software deployment / Device remediation: Another big one. From a sysadmin's perspective:
I need to be able to push all configuration over USB, through a USB hub, with 30 tablets connected at once.
I need to be able to push software from a central source, update it wirelessly, and respond quickly to teacher's requests for new software. Apple let me do all these things without touching the device. The software will just update in the background.
If the alternative devices don't do this, then you need to budget support hours in with the cost of the device, because each school will have a fixed amount of support available to them in the form of tech time.
At the end of the day, I like both OSes (android and iOS), and I would happily support either given the resources, but schools don't have unlimited resources so you have to pick the best tool for the job...
On 25 November 2014 at 23:17, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2014, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
My sons' school is next on the bandwagon it seems, more information here:
http://www.craigburn.sa.edu.au/files/BYOD%20iPads/innovative_learning_prg
ram_craigburn.pdf
The "Managing and operating ICT" line seems to go against using the most locked down device on the market that can't be managed by the user.
http://etbe.coker.com.au/2013/02/11/phone-tablet-sizes/
Some time ago I researched the various ways of holding a phone or
and what sizes might be best for different ages. Note that I assume that
ratio of finger length to height in my body is the same as that for all ages, while that assumption is probably inaccurate it should do as a rough approximation.
For use of mobile devices there are various times and uses that suit different ways of using them (EG 2 hand use works well in a classroom but not on a bus). Therefore to cater to all ages a wide range of sizes should be available. The range of Android phones and tablets covers everything from 4" to 12" screen size with no gaps of more than about 0.5". Apple just doesn't have the same range.
Apple devices are significantly more expensive. Has the new lock technology to prevent theft been added to all the iPads? If not then it seems
If they their tablet the like a
bad idea to have young kids carrying around expensive items that can be re-sold.
http://www.friendshipcircle.org/blog/2012/09/04/14-special-needs-android-app...
on-google-play/
The claim that the iPad is good for "special needs" kids, but the above URL is one of many with links to Android apps - presumably things have got even better over the last 2 years. Perhaps it would be good to find out what "special needs" they are referring to and compare the devices on that basis.
- "Light and easy to carry; long battery life." Are not other tablets? I do not use a tablet computer but surely competitors are comparable.
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
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On 18/12/14 12:56, Fraser Tweedale wrote:
I'm was thinking more along lines of being about to bypass app stores or official software channels and run on your device whatever software you wish. My understanding is that it's difficult on iOS. It is indeed unnecessarily difficult to work toward improving your own education with these closed proprietary systems (such as iOS) and it significantly disadvantages those children who are discontent with achieving second-to-last.
There exist tools and techniques to work around these "mandates" and I implore others to work toward providing those and importantly, making them more accessible.
On 18 December 2014 at 13:56, Fraser Tweedale <frase@frase.id.au> wrote:
I'm was thinking more along lines of being about to bypass app stores or official software channels and run on your device whatever software you wish. My understanding is that it's difficult on iOS.
Yeah, they run a PKI that requires all apps to be signed with a valid developer certificate. You can bypass that by jailbreaking (which can be quite easy, depending on your software version, or totally impossible), or you can pay $100/year for a cert from apple, which they will give to anyone who pays, and comes with hosting / review on the App Store, as well a development environment if you want to release something. (but you can also use it independently to compile and run your own stuff, without uploading it to apple.) Also, you need a mac. Which is no small point and a considerable expense. I think there might be workarounds now for compiling stuff on a PC with other frameworks and then loading but I'm not sure. I'd be curious to do a comparison with schools that do run android fleets, do any students actually untick the box that lets you install from other app stores, how do they use it (eg in ways other than piracy) and how often. You could certainly use it as a cost benefit reason against iOS, if it becomes clear that it is something they will use and thus need to pay $100/cert/year for if they go iOS.. I'm don't personally know of any successful android deployments in schools yet though.. As far as Wifi, it's a PKI based system, we can create certs for our own schools using a web based tool, how we deploy them is up to us. On iPads use Apple Configurator to deploy through USB, on windows machines usually a tool that just calls powershell.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2014, "Noah O'Donoghue" <noah.odonoghue@gmail.com> wrote:
However, I'm not really convinced that the alternatives are any less lock-in, because the android apps you purchase only work on android devices.. So what's the difference? If you move away to another platform
Android apps that you purchase will work on products from Google (Nexus), Samsung, HTC, LG, and other companies. iOS apps that you purchase will only work on products from Apple. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
On Thu, 18 Dec 2014, "Noah O'Donoghue" <noah.odonoghue@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually Android wins handily when you start looking at such things. If you want a device that's smaller, larger, lighter, cheaper, or has a longer battery life then there's an Android device that wins. Apple makes a very small range of devices.
Citation needed. Show me a small, light, android tablet with decent battery life including standby power. Apple make a small range of devices, but they
No citation needed at all. Choose a category and if there is a wide range of devices to choose from (such as the range of Android devices) then one of them will win. There are many engineering trade-offs for things such as battery life vs weight, more expensive products can improve the possibilities regarding the combination of weight and battery life but there's always a trade-off. There is currentl no iPad smaller than 7.9 inches diagonal, no iPad with a screen resolution greater than 2048*1536 or size greater than 9.7 inches. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
Android apps that you purchase will work on products from Google (Nexus), Samsung, HTC, LG, and other companies. iOS apps that you purchase will only work on products from Apple.
I think this only tells part of the story - You are still being locked in to google ecosystem, (to access Google Play) and manufacturers of those phones need to pay Google for certification eg ( http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/23/how-google-controls-androi... ) I agree that lock in is bad, I just don't think it is any less on any particular platform. It's a reality of any technology at the present time. On 18 December 2014 at 18:00, Russell Coker <russell@coker.com.au> wrote:
Choose a category and if there is a wide range of devices to choose from (such as the range of Android devices) then one of them will win.
My apologies, it seems like we are both saying the same thing - Apple has a limited range of devices. I was engaging with you point as if you had said Android wins "handily" in each category that apple serves, but I think you were just saying there is a much greater range of choice? To give my opinion on some earlier points, Apple devices are significantly more expensive. Has the new lock technology
to prevent theft been added to all the iPads? If not then it seems like a bad idea to have young kids carrying around expensive items that can be re-sold.
RE: Activation lock - yes, by default, it's effectively opt-out and pushed on you every time you do a software update / set up a new device. RE: Expensive, I'm not sure I agree. In the sense that they have a higher starting price, I certainly agree, but value for money at the specifications they offer is another thing altogether. You really need to compare two similar devices not compare across device categories, Eg compare 2 9.7inch tablets, (16GB iPad around ~$480) and make sure you look at the overall cost in the context of a school environment. You need to look at the software update lifecycle of each device, for example the iPad 2 (and all since) is still supported on the latest version of iOS, nearly 4 years from it's release date. There are a lot of android tablets released last year that won't get even this years Android Lollipop, and compatibility then becomes a problem with apps, as well as security updates, etc. When comparing specs you need be aware of: Battery reliability (eg life after 2 years. On iPad it rated to 1000 cycles / 85%, which is well more than 3 years of normal usage) / runtime (as discussed before) Cpu efficiency eg native code vs Java. You need less CPU for native code. RAM efficiency see above - The contradiction of "There are and should be multiple devices for
learning" and "we nominate iPad as the core device" appearing in the same sentence.
I totally agree it's madness to deploy iPads in place of laptops. They are a companion device that are useful for reading (textbook / ebooks) collaborative learning, videos / video editing, research etc but they are no replacement for laptops which are used for writing / typing / programming etc. If you can only afford one device, don't make it an iPad, make it a laptop, because you can still do some of the functionality of the iPad it is just less engaging.
"Noah O'Donoghue" <noah.odonoghue@gmail.com> writes:
You are [by deploying Android tablets in a public school] still being locked in to google ecosystem, (to access Google Play)
The advantage of Android, as contrasted with iOS, is that it's quite straightforward to never use Google Play, and there are plenty of apps available from non-Google app stores. This is certainly an increase in software freedom for the owner of an Android device, as compared with iOS device owners. -- \ “Program testing can be a very effective way to show the | `\ presence of bugs, but is hopelessly inadequate for showing | _o__) their absence.” —Edsger W. Dijkstra | Ben Finney
On 19 December 2014 at 10:24, Ben Finney <ben+freesoftware@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
The advantage of Android, as contrasted with iOS, is that it's quite straightforward to never use Google Play, and there are plenty of apps available from non-Google app stores.
Ben, it sure doesn't seem that way. eg http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controll... In fact, you have to go out of your way to avoid Google's ecosystem and buy a phone like the blackphone..
On 19 December 2014 at 10:44, Andrew Pam <xanni@sericyb.com.au> wrote:
Or install Cyanogenmod.
Cheers, Andrew
I had to do that for a friend on his HTC.. It involved downgrading the firmware to one that was vulnerable to a boot rom exploit, exploiting the boot rom, patching recovery, flashing a new rom, migrating all the data back. Easy for some...
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 10:48:03AM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
On 19 December 2014 at 10:44, Andrew Pam <xanni@sericyb.com.au> wrote:
Or install Cyanogenmod.
Cheers, Andrew
I had to do that for a friend on his HTC.. It involved downgrading the firmware to one that was vulnerable to a boot rom exploit, exploiting the boot rom, patching recovery, flashing a new rom, migrating all the data back.
Easy for some...
Let's work on making it easy for everyone. If we succeed, companies will compete on making quality computers that are loyal[1] to their users, instead of competing on who can exploit their users the most. [1] "What Does it Mean for Your Computer to Be Loyal?" - RMS http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/loyal-computers.html In the meantime, keep helping your friends as often as they need help to be free :) Fraser
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Has it been established, with regard to the goals, that it is reasonable to talk about "iOS versus Android"? For example, my children use archlinux at a school that requires "mandatory Apple or Windows [because we give you the choice!]" They are able to do this after I engaged in some negotiation with the school, which was very pleasant and constructive. It is possible to simply use better tools to achieve the ultimate goals of the school and my children exploit that, to the benefit of their education. Importantly, accurately establishing those goals was a major part of that discussion. To give an only-slightly-exaggerated example of what I mean, a naive person might say, "Mandatory Microsoft Word so that you can do text editing." That same person later learns that Mrs Sally, the relief teacher, has a Mac and she is (magically?) able to also read those text editing files, so the policy is changed to "Must have Windows or Apple." After some back and forth, it is established that the requirement is actually to be able to read some of the handouts, which are in .doc format. To the point, do we really have to pick between the best of two not-so-open (or useful?) platforms? Is there really no other way? Remember to stay true to the goal. Sorry if I missed that part. It feels like I did. On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Andrew Pam <xanni@sericyb.com.au> wrote:
On 19/12/14 10:35, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
In fact, you have to go out of your way to avoid Google's ecosystem and buy a phone like the blackphone..
Or install Cyanogenmod.
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On 19 December 2014 at 10:59, Tony Morris <tmorris@tmorris.net> wrote:
Has it been established, with regard to the goals, that it is reasonable to talk about "iOS versus Android"?
For example, my children use archlinux at a school that requires "mandatory Apple or Windows [because we give you the choice!]"
Tony I think BYOD (bring your own device) is a great idea and shouldn't be locked down to a particular device in schools. I personally used Mandrake Linux on my laptop at school when the policy was windows only, (and got away with it) I think the goals being discussed were more school mandated and administrated devices, and which device is best value for a school, which is where most of my experience and input comes from, but I can't see any harm discussing other goals as well. On 19 December 2014 at 11:01, Andrew Roffey <andrew@roffey.org> wrote:
I don't think Android is a good example of a free OS any more anyway. In comparison to iOS, Android is "more free" but it still used by Google to mistreat its users.
Well said, heartily agree.
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:08:51AM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
On 19 December 2014 at 10:59, Tony Morris <tmorris@tmorris.net> wrote:
Has it been established, with regard to the goals, that it is reasonable to talk about "iOS versus Android"?
For example, my children use archlinux at a school that requires "mandatory Apple or Windows [because we give you the choice!]"
Tony I think BYOD (bring your own device) is a great idea and shouldn't be locked down to a particular device in schools. I personally used Mandrake Linux on my laptop at school when the policy was windows only, (and got away with it)
I think the goals being discussed were more school mandated and administrated devices, and which device is best value for a school, which is where most of my experience and input comes from, but I can't see any harm discussing other goals as well.
As long as it's clear what goals are being discussed where. (I accept much of the responibility for muddying these waters in this thread, but will strive to do better.) Fraser
On 19 December 2014 at 11:01, Andrew Roffey <andrew@roffey.org> wrote:
I don't think Android is a good example of a free OS any more anyway. In comparison to iOS, Android is "more free" but it still used by Google to mistreat its users.
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"Noah O'Donoghue" <noah.odonoghue@gmail.com> writes:
On 19 December 2014 at 10:24, Ben Finney <ben+freesoftware@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
The advantage of Android, as contrasted with iOS, is that it's quite straightforward to never use Google Play, and there are plenty of apps available from non-Google app stores.
Ben, it sure doesn't seem that way.
What in particular are you disagreeing with in what I wrote above?
eg http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controll...
That article makes very good points: the non-free, vendor-locked-in Google Play apps are much more attractive in terms of features than those in the Android OSP. Further, Google's terms for app developers are increasingly prejudiced against developing apps which respect software freedom. But there's a stark difference between “can get the device functioning perfectly well without lock-in to services from the OS vendor”, versus “there is simply no option at all to use the device without lock-in to the OS vendor”. With Android, there are many devices where the former is true. A prospective owner can shop for devices supporting AOSP, find them for sale today, and a device owner (or their technically competent delegate) can quite straightforwardly remove Google services from the device and Google Play will never be contacted again. The students that receive devices so configured will have in their hands a device that performs a huge range of useful, networked functionality, without ever contacting Google Play. With Apple's tablets and handhelds, for every such device they have ever sold, disabling the Apple services would cripple the device beyond any useful purpose. Students cannot receive such a device without it being far less useful than the Android device. You seem intent on dismissing these differences. They are huge in terms of increasing, and maintaining, software freedom for the device owners and users. -- \ “Not using Microsoft products is like being a non-smoker 40 or | `\ 50 years ago: You can choose not to smoke, yourself, but it's | _o__) hard to avoid second-hand smoke.” —Michael Tiemann | Ben Finney
The advantage of Android, as contrasted with iOS, is that it's quite straightforward to never use Google Play, and there are plenty of apps available from non-Google app stores.
On 19 December 2014 at 10:51, Ben Finney <ben+freesoftware@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
What in particular are you disagreeing with in what I wrote above?
Mainly the "quite straightforward" part of what you're saying. You basically have to run through a process with Android devices which is no easier than jailbreaking an iOS device, and offers the same benefits. A jailbroken device can be used without Apple's services. There are even OSS app stores available.
Android apps that you purchase will work on products from Google (Nexus), Samsung, HTC, LG, and other companies. iOS apps that you purchase will only work on products from Apple.
I think this only tells part of the story - You are still being locked in to google ecosystem, (to access Google Play) and manufacturers of those phones need to pay Google for certification eg
I don't think Android is a good example of a free OS any more anyway. In comparison to iOS, Android is "more free" but it still used by Google to mistreat its users. Aside from freedom aspects, Android is very much a part of the anti-privacy upload-everything-to-the-cloud cartel. I was shocked to find out how many smartphone devices are literally bricks until they are remotely activated upon registration. Not sure if Android devices do this yet, but Windows Phone does, and I heard iOS does it as well. Replicant along with the F-Droid app store is a far better example of a mobile operating system which attempts to provide software freedom for users, although its actual use is quite limited, even more so than GNU/Linux on desktops and laptops. (See http://www.replicant.us and https://f-droid.org for more information on these projects). I've never owned a smartphone or tablet so I don't have any comments on the practical aspects of those devices. -- Andrew Roffey http://andrew.roffey.org [mailto|xmpp]:andrew@roffey.org see website for GPG/OTR pubkeys
On 19 December 2014 at 11:01, Andrew Roffey <andrew@roffey.org> wrote:
Replicant along with the F-Droid app store is a far better example of a mobile operating system which attempts to provide software freedom for users, although its actual use is quite limited, even more so than GNU/Linux on desktops and laptops.
It is a shame that F-Droid seems to be out of date compared with software available on Play Store. This really kills the idea of having a open source Android phone without the proprietary Google stuff IMHO. For example, Firefox on F-Droid is version 33.0, while Play Store has 34.0 and Beta version 35.0. CSIPSimple on Play Store is version 1.02.03 with mention of fixing problems with Android 5.0, and from F-Droid is only version 1.02.01. -- Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au>
Surely the source of the f-droid app is also available so that project can be forked if they aren't getting new versions fast enough. On December 23, 2014 9:19:11 PM GMT+11:00, Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au> wrote:
On 19 December 2014 at 11:01, Andrew Roffey <andrew@roffey.org> wrote:
Replicant along with the F-Droid app store is a far better example of a mobile operating system which attempts to provide software freedom for users, although its actual use is quite limited, even more so than GNU/Linux on desktops and laptops.
It is a shame that F-Droid seems to be out of date compared with software available on Play Store. This really kills the idea of having a open source Android phone without the proprietary Google stuff IMHO.
For example, Firefox on F-Droid is version 33.0, while Play Store has 34.0 and Beta version 35.0.
CSIPSimple on Play Store is version 1.02.03 with mention of fixing problems with Android 5.0, and from F-Droid is only version 1.02.01.
-- Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 with K-9 Mail.
On 23/12/14 21:59, Russell Coker wrote:
Surely the source of the f-droid app is also available so that project can be forked if they aren't getting new versions fast enough.
You don't even need to go that far. Just host your own repo with newer versions of the packages. F-Droid encourages projects to host their own repo. I personally don't mind being a few weeks behind, as long as there's not too much lag on security updates.
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 10:35:01AM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
On 19 December 2014 at 10:24, Ben Finney <ben+freesoftware@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
The advantage of Android, as contrasted with iOS, is that it's quite straightforward to never use Google Play, and there are plenty of apps available from non-Google app stores.
Ben, it sure doesn't seem that way. eg http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controll...
In fact, you have to go out of your way to avoid Google's ecosystem and buy a phone like the blackphone..
You both seem to be talking about two different things. Ben was saying that you can run whatever app store you want - you are not forced to use Google. This is absolutely true. On my Sony Xperia Z1 Ultra "phablet" running Android, I had no trouble at all disabling all the Google Play apps and installing F-Droid. No firmware hacking or rooting, etc. The Humble Bundle also have their own "store" on Android for apps you have purchased, completely outside of Google's ecosystem, for example. On the other hand, you seem to be saying that you can't avoid Google's ecosystem because Android is becoming increasingly proprietary. While I don't deny claims that Google is replacing free software apps with proprietary versions, Google does not force you to use them to date. I use F-Droid to switch back to the old free software "Music" app, and use the free software K-9 Mail app exclusively for e-mail. Most/all of the proprietary apps cannot be uninstalled without firmware hacking, but can be disabled to prevent them from running or even appearing in the application launcher. But this is all beside the point. The point is that you don't need Google's ecosystem to install apps on Android. You do need Apple's ecosystem to install apps on most Apple devices. -Adam
This sounds like a fantastic topic for our Feb meet up! Noah could we pencil you in to talk a little about your experiences? Doesn't need to be anything formal, but you have the very valuable perspective from inside a school. I'm sure we'll have a few parents with school aged kids (or soon to be) too. This is kind of tough problem that I've always hoped our group can take some practical steps towards fixing. Regards, Ben
On 19 December 2014 at 11:26, Adam Bolte <abolte@systemsaviour.com> wrote:
You both seem to be talking about two different things. Ben was saying that you can run whatever app store you want - you are not forced to use Google. This is absolutely true. On my Sony Xperia Z1 Ultra "phablet" running Android, I had no trouble at all disabling all the Google Play apps and installing F-Droid. No firmware hacking or rooting, etc. The Humble Bundle also have their own "store" on Android for apps you have purchased, completely outside of Google's ecosystem, for example.
I think the main part of my argument was that there is vendor lock in on any platform. Google has less, but it's more of a technicality in the frame of the larger argument which was tablets in school environments. Because it's a technicality, you have to assess either platform on their merits in an educational environment.. I'm not saying we shouldn't embrace app stores like F-droid, they are great, I was more just responding to the individual needs of a school, which aren't really met by f-droid's 30 or so total educational apps... Hopefully the situation improves over time. On 19 December 2014 at 11:45, Ben Sturmfels <ben@stumbles.id.au> wrote:
This sounds like a fantastic topic for our Feb meet up! Noah could we pencil you in to talk a little about your experiences? Doesn't need to be anything formal, but you have the very valuable perspective from inside a school. I'm sure we'll have a few parents with school aged kids (or soon to be) too.
Maybe.. I'd have to think about that one a bit. It's kinda like doing a talk on vi vs emacs :P Can we ban tomato's from the meet and make sure no-one brings a stockade?
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:53:55AM +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
I think the main part of my argument was that there is vendor lock in on any platform. Google has less, but it's more of a technicality in the frame of the larger argument which was tablets in school environments. Because it's a technicality, you have to assess either platform on their merits in an educational environment..
Perhaps we have different ideas about what is meant by vendor lock-in. From Wikipedia: "In economics, vendor lock-in, also known as proprietary lock-in or customer lock-in, makes a customer dependent on a vendor for products and services, unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendor_lockin On that page, Apple has an entire section all to itself. Google isn't mentioned at all. Now I'm certainly not a Google fan, but until they remove the option to install apps manually, or prevent use of 3rd-party application catalogue software, and lock the device down with the intent to prevent such options from being re-added, it's hardly vendor lock-in. And vendor intent is important to consider. You may be able to "jailbreak" out of Apple's closed ecosystem on certain devices, but it is not Apple's intent to allow it. By contrast, Google does nothing to prevent it. Even if Jailbreaking was always available, just as easy as checking the "Unknown sources" option in Andoid's security settings, etc., we still cannot be confident that Apple will not delete apps installed through jailbreaking (and they are currently in trouble for doing something along these lines). http://m.theregister.co.uk/2014/12/04/apple_ipod_itunes_antitrust_court_case...
I'm not saying we shouldn't embrace app stores like F-droid, they are great, I was more just responding to the individual needs of a school, which aren't really met by f-droid's 30 or so total educational apps... Hopefully the situation improves over time.
The reason why (from my POV) avoiding vendor lock-in is so important is that it means students with Android tablets can write their own application (on any device), and not have the device prevent the software from being effectively free (ie. software can be copied, distributed to fellow students, modified, modifications by fellow students shared, etc.). As soon as you tell people "you can have my app, but you need to own a Mac if you want to modify it, pay Apple $100 a year, etc", in practise it's hindering the possibility of sharing free software, restricting the usefulness of the device, and inhibiting a student's ability to learn tablet programming because of it. I don't think anyone here is saying the school needs to source all its apps from F-Droid (although it would good to have apps there considered for use if appropriate). Only Apple is saying that you must source all apps from Apple if using an Apple device. :) -Adam
On Fri, 19 Dec 2014, Adam Bolte <abolte@systemsaviour.com> wrote:
You both seem to be talking about two different things. Ben was saying that you can run whatever app store you want - you are not forced to use Google. This is absolutely true. On my Sony Xperia Z1 Ultra "phablet" running Android, I had no trouble at all disabling all the Google Play apps and installing F-Droid. No firmware hacking or rooting, etc. The Humble Bundle also have their own "store" on Android for apps you have purchased, completely outside of Google's ecosystem, for example.
On the other hand, you seem to be saying that you can't avoid Google's ecosystem because Android is becoming increasingly proprietary. While I don't deny claims that Google is replacing free software apps with proprietary versions, Google does not force you to use them to date.
Google's lock-in at the moment is all about convenience. It's painful to avoid the Google programs but they make no attempt to make it impossible. Apply however design their iPhones and iPads to make it impossible to do anything other than the Apple way and it's only bugs that allow people to use the hardware they "own" as they wish. But I think that a large portion of the inconvenience of running non-Google apps is due to the lack of testing. EG if you use K9 mail then you still have the process for the Exchange connector running all the time because no-one in the development team cared enough to test that use case. Nexus devices are the most well known for having an unlocked boot loader. Lots of other Android phones and tablets can be unlocked if you search. I even heard that Sony had been quietly making it possible to run your own OS on their devices. It is quite possible to sell Android devices that are locked down and which require exploiting a bug to get root access. But there is no requirement that devices be sold in that way and there is a choice of vendors. -- My Main Blog http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/
On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 04:19:07PM +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
But I think that a large portion of the inconvenience of running non-Google apps is due to the lack of testing.
That sounds reasonable.
Nexus devices are the most well known for having an unlocked boot loader. Lots of other Android phones and tablets can be unlocked if you search. I even heard that Sony had been quietly making it possible to run your own OS on their devices.
Correct. Sony has a whole section on their website to help people unlock it, but it does void the warranty. http://developer.sonymobile.com/unlockbootloader/unlock-yourboot-loader/
It is quite possible to sell Android devices that are locked down and which require exploiting a bug to get root access. But there is no requirement that devices be sold in that way and there is a choice of vendors.
Exactly. Having a bootloader that isn't locked or can easily be unlocked has been an important factor in my previous smartphone purchasing decisions. Cheers, Adam
On Thu, 2014-12-18 at 12:13 +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
I've been on conferences where teachers talk for days about all the apps they are using in their classroom and the ways they are using them for educational outcomes. There are just so many apps available. Here's a link to multiple pages of specific examples. Pick any 10, and see if you can find equivalents on android. The situation is getting better (more apps on android than before). But it's not there yet in the educational arena.
http://www.ipadsforeducation.vic.edu.au/userfiles/files/ipads_for_learning_g...
I had a look through that document. I am aware of android alternatives for many of those, and am sure for many more of them I could find something if I tried. Quite a few of those are already available on the web anyway, which can be accessed from any device. There are likely a few that are not available but no school will use all of them and I doubt any truly are deal-breakers. In fact, I expected to see a list of must-haves and was surprised that I didn't find them.
The accessibility features of iOS are quite extensive. I couldn't begin to iterate through the features, but one that comes to mind is single app mode, which is great for locking a specific app to view, and can be switched on and off instantly from a server.
Agreed this is not default android, but Kiosk mode apps - including with centralised remote control - are available. There are also other apps available which give far more sophisticated control; I use ScreenTime for my children, it lets me control which apps are used during school hours versus home time for instance, and prevent use of games etc at inappropriate times. This one is not available for iPad, but maybe others are.
Citation needed. Show me a small, light, android tablet with decent battery life including standby power. Apple make a small range of devices, but they are premium devices and usually the smallest / lightest / fastest in their category at time of release.
I dispute that you want it too small. For doing creative work (and even for web sometimes) larger would be better. I can get a Samsung 10" tablet for under $300 in the shops locally, it's a good device not some cheap no name product and has quite sufficient processing (quad core, 16GB, 10 hour in-use battery life) for educational work. Can you show me a 10" iPad for under $300? Alternatively I might decide that I want a rugged tablet for my children, as they are otherwise prone to breaking delicate and expensive items. Sure, I can buy a rugged Android tablet if I choose, but there is no such opportunity from Apple. While Apple kit does have good specs you always pay an Apple premium for it, and in my experience can almost always find something as good as or better, and cheaper, from other manufacturers. A note on battery life, if my children are using the device constantly for more than 2 hours a day at school then I am worried as I think that book, paper, and other physical object based learning should still be the primary mode of learning. I want them to be getting paint on their hands (within reason), do real science experiments (that don't work!) rather than watch them on a screen, and use the index or scan a book to answer questions rather than just copy-pasting off Wikipedia.
If you find a solid example make sure you compare it to the price of Apple's iPad offering in schools, which is about $480.
Yes, I think I can beat that as per above.
<various sysadmin stuff deleted>
If the alternative devices don't do this, then you need to budget support hours in with the cost of the device, because each school will have a fixed amount of support available to them in the form of tech time.
At the end of the day, I like both OSes (android and iOS), and I would happily support either given the resources, but schools don't have unlimited resources so you have to pick the best tool for the job...
I think your points are valid if the technology is paid for and provided for by the school, and administered by the school. This is how our school is right now, everything is Apple and from my point of view that is no different and no worse than an everything is Windows school. I would much prefer schools to be enlightened to freedom based alternatives but since it is entirely within their boundaries they are free to do as they please and I am entirely fine with that. However, the situation is entirely different when the expectation is that the parents are to pay for, provide, and administer the devices, which is what many schools are moving to (including ours) and is how this thread started. See the links I put in the email at the start of this thread for more details. In this case then the school's preferences becomes only one part of the equation and the needs and preferences of the family also become relevant. At that point demanding a particular device from a single manufacturer is unreasonable and completely ignores important factors such as how the device will be used outside of school, how it will be provided and managed by parents, how it will interoperate with existing devices owned by the family, and whether parents are able to afford the devices in the first place. We have 3 young children but we have friends with 5 school age children, and a purchase of ~$500 x N is beyond many families budgets, especially given the short lifecycle of these devices meaning it probably needs replacing every 2-3 years (or whenever the school decides they need an upgrade). And this is not even mentioning whether the parents are of the opinion that the cost is going to provide that level of educational benefit, which is something that certainly many people are not convinced of. I for one find the Apple/Android pads great for consuming content but not for creation, and would very much prefer a laptop based curriculum. Also the longevity of these devices is much better, I use a 4 year old laptop for 50 hours a week for my work and apart from battery replacement it's still entirely up to the job and runs the latest software (Fedora is my choice but it could be anything). I have a 7 year old laptop that is just as effective for working with and also runs the latest software. In 7 years time the current generation of pads will be mostly in the trash I'm sure. There are references on the web of iPad classes where non-iPad provided children are largely excluded, or even worse, where the iPad is a convenient way of filling time. From personal anecdotes I hear of an Asperger's child given an iPad instead of the special support needed just because it makes life easier for a teacher that does not fully understand the needs of the child. I think this whole area has many facets and is far from black and white like the iPad brigade like to present it. Cheers, Martin
On 19 December 2014 at 12:56, Adam Bolte <abolte@systemsaviour.com> wrote:
Perhaps we have different ideas about what is meant by vendor lock-in. From Wikipedia:
Adam, I agree on all these points, I just don't think they make a big difference in an educational environment. You give someone $200 to spend on apps for their device and they will get locked in to an ecosystem regardless of whether that is Apple iTunes, Google Play or F-droid. Again, agree on android doing this far better than apple, but it's the degree of relevance at school that I'm talking about. On 19 December 2014 at 18:43, Martin Ebourne <lists@ebourne.me.uk> wrote:
I dispute that you want it too small. For doing creative work (and even for web sometimes) larger would be better.
Not me! I always argue for the 9.7inch iPad. It was someone else in the thread that was talking about different form factors. I can get a Samsung 10"
tablet for under $300 in the shops locally, it's a good device not some cheap no name product and has quite sufficient processing (quad core, 16GB, 10 hour in-use battery life) for educational work. Can you show me a 10" iPad for under $300?
You might have to clarify this, I did a quick look at JB Hifi and could only find a refurbished 10inch samsung tablet for $398 ( https://www.jbhifi.com.au/computers-tablets/tablets/samsung/samsung-galaxy-n... )
Also, quad core is no guarantee of performance. Both of my android tablets I tried from Hong Kong were quad core and they were so far behind my old dual core iPad 2. For reference you can get refurbished iPad 2's for $319 or brand new iPad with Retina (4th generation) for $390.00, which is a popular option taken by a lot of schools.
A note on battery life, if my children are using the device constantly for more than 2 hours a day at school then I am worried as I think that book, paper, and other physical object based learning should still be the primary mode of learning. I want them to be getting paint on their hands (within reason), do real science experiments (that don't work!) rather than watch them on a screen, and use the index or scan a book to answer questions rather than just copy-pasting off Wikipedia.
I think you greatly underestimate how much usage it will get. I know with a lot of students a device with a 2 hour battery life will be 50% depleted before the first lesson starts.. A lot of kids leave home at 7:30 and play with it on the bus.. Also, scanning a book and reading an index is something an iPad is great for. I would even say better, because you get the benefit of annotation and leaving notes, hyperlinks.. where you would otherwise destroy a physical book. If you only plan for 2 hours it's a huge waste of money..
If you find a solid example make sure you compare it to the price of Apple's iPad offering in schools, which is about $480.
Yes, I think I can beat that as per above.
Sorry, I realize I have changed the bar with regard to price, but the above $390 is the actual cost at one of my schools, I had to look up the quote.
In this case then the school's preferences becomes only one part of the equation and the needs and preferences of the family also become relevant. At that point demanding a particular device from a single manufacturer is unreasonable and completely ignores important factors such as how the device will be used outside of school, how it will be provided and managed by parents, how it will interoperate with existing devices owned by the family, and whether parents are able to afford the devices in the first place.
Agree, however you have to weigh the needs of the schools heavily as that is where the technology will be used primarily. Are you suggesting moving away from a monoculture to a totally open choice? In that case you need to make sure the teachers are educated on the use of every particular OS (and version!) as well as what software is available on each platform. That is an extremely difficult (and expensive!) task and I'd hate to be the one to write that training document.. Also the longevity of these devices is much better, I use a 4 year old
laptop for 50 hours a week for my work and apart from battery replacement it's still entirely up to the job and runs the latest software (Fedora is my choice but it could be anything).
All I can say to this is I think you have an atypical experience. Maybe you use better software than the rest of the populace (fedora not windows), or you're comparing hardware outside the range of school hardware ($500 - $800), but in my experience in an IT service desk after 3 years the laptops really struggle.
There are references on the web of iPad classes where non-iPad provided children are largely excluded,
Agree and I think this is where enforcing hard rules about what must be supplied / bought is important. I think a free and open choice leads to some students being disadvantaged because their parent's can't afford it, or refuse to prioritize their children's education because they don't understand why the technology is relevant. Ideally this technology would be supplied by the government, but now the Kevin Rudd money is over and we just have to move on with what we can.. or even worse, where the iPad is a
convenient way of filling time. From personal anecdotes I hear of an Asperger's child given an iPad instead of the special support needed just because it makes life easier for a teacher that does not fully understand the needs of the child.
Agree, this happens. Teacher training and the slow filtering down of technology skills is the only way I think you can solve this.
On Fri, 2014-12-19 at 23:56 +1100, Noah O'Donoghue wrote:
You might have to clarify this, I did a quick look at JB Hifi and could only find a refurbished 10inch samsung tablet for $398 ( https://www.jbhifi.com.au/computers-tablets/tablets/samsung/samsung-galaxy-n... )
Also, quad core is no guarantee of performance. Both of my android tablets I tried from Hong Kong were quad core and they were so far behind my old dual core iPad 2.
For reference you can get refurbished iPad 2's for $319 or brand new iPad with Retina (4th generation) for $390.00, which is a popular option taken by a lot of schools.
Sorry, I realize I have changed the bar with regard to price, but the above $390 is the actual cost at one of my schools, I had to look up the quote.
Since you ask, I happened to be in the local OfficeWorks store yesterday for some supplies and they had a wide range of tablets so I noted some prices down. This is the tablet I had in mind and it is well under the $300 I mentioned. Note this is marked as "Everyday low price" and is not a one-off discount: Samsung Tab 4 10.1" 16GB $274 To prove the point that was argued earlier that there is a device for almost everyone in the Android family, here are a few 10" tablets I saw: El cheapo brand 10.1" $99 Asus 10.1" $199 Samsung Galaxy S 10.5" OLED $539 The 99 bucks is probably bad and I wouldn't recommend it, but I'm sure someone is able to get good value out of it and it probably lets people use a tablet who otherwise would have none. After all I use a $40 Huawei Android 4 phone which is low on power but does me just fine and is unbeatable value - nice and small for my pocket too. Don't think that everyone needs the top spec all of the time. Note that the high end $539 is a super high-end spec to easily match and probably even exceed Apple's, while still being cheaper than comparable iPads. It has an AMOLED display 2560x1600 which is absolutely gorgeous and stands out side-by-side to all of the other tablets in the store. Meanwhile the cheapest Ipad Air was $469 and they went up to $737, clearly a huge premium over comparable Android devices. The point is clearly proven - there is an Android device to suit almost any budget/features and a massive range compared to the limited Apple offerings. Not all of these are appropriate to school use, but there are very reasonably priced offerings which are. Also quoting what sounds like school direct pricing doesn't really help as in this "brave new world" parents are likely to be buying retail and so such pricing is not relevant. (And trying to compare refurbished to brand new does not compute either.)
Are you suggesting moving away from a monoculture to a totally open choice?
That would be fantastic, but I agree that it is unrealistic. So no, I'm not proposing that, but I definitely believe there needs to be some choice available. If a device is able to provide for the daily needs of the children in class, and be sufficiently easy to use that the children and teachers can manage it, then it should be acceptable - and many of these devices are suitable. Cheers, Martin
participants (12)
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Adam Bolte -
Andrew Pam -
Andrew Roffey -
Ben Finney -
Ben Sturmfels -
Brian May -
Fraser Tweedale -
Martin Ebourne -
Noah O'Donoghue -
Russell Coker -
Tony Morris -
Tony Morris