getting involved with unis (wiki)
Hi, I was looking at the easy advocacy page on the wiki, and saw the getting involved in Unis part. I figured as a student I'd be able to shed some more light through my experiences. Getting involved in Unis - doing your course with free software - Andy K At the moment, you can't do it with fully free software (at least at Monash). Sometimes even required to use proprietary windows only software. - free software tools Sometimes actively encouraged, sometimes not permitted. Never seen it encouraged due to being free software, always another reason. Sometimes it gets mentioned that it's free software, though generally referred to as open source. - lab computer At Monash the IT lab computers dual boot windows and some distro I can't remember, but they keep that distro really out of date and don't even install dev tools on it in IT labs. One of my tutors last semester thinks it's so no one will use it so they won't have to support it. Given that, I'd expect active resistance to trying to get the tools we need on them. - are we focusing on unis or students? I think they tie together. You can target students through unis, for example a lug is starting at Monash Clayton soon, and hopefully we can do something about these issues around the uni, thus using students to target the uni. - requirements on submitting assignments - getting course requirements changed - Ben F: does MS office naively support ODF? I don't know, but you receive a list of formats you are allowed to submit in - for anything you would want to submit as odt it ranges from .doc only, pdf only or both. - course coordinators? Some could be sympathetic, but I see it being very difficult to get them to allow using fully free software. Allowing complete use of a free software operating system is more realistic for now.
Following up from Bianca Gibson's comments... At the university of Melbourne you can access the information futures report http://www.informationfutures.unimelb.edu.au/commission/reports which states: To deal with globalisation of education and its infrastructure we will: Leverage the opportunities offered by being part of a global collaborative community. 6. We will actively seek to participate in collaborative communities and partnerships that enable us to influence and leverage abilities beyond our means as an individual organisation. We will use open standards, open source and other open initiatives to ensure that we can effectively collaborate, 'trade' and re-use the work of whole communities. We will not invest in creating bespoke solutions that we could readily achieve in other ways or where they do not add unique and deep value to our mission. The report online is dated 2008, but I believe it has been reiterated in a Dec 2011 update. So The University of Melbourne apparently encourages use of open source software! Geoff !-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! Professor Geoff Shaw | ! Department of Zoology ,, | ! The University of Melbourne 3010 |:> | ! Email g.shaw@zoology.unimelb.edu.au. ///\-- | ! Phone 61-3-8344-6267 Fax 8344-7909 ||||> | ! <http://www.zoology.unimelb.edu.au> ______//||___ | !------------------------------------------wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww-------------+ -----Original Message----- From: free-software-melb-bounces@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au [mailto:free-software-melb-bounces@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au] On Behalf Of Bianca Gibson Sent: Friday, 24 February 2012 11:27 AM To: Melbourne Free Software Interest Group Subject: [free-software-melb] getting involved with unis (wiki) Hi, I was looking at the easy advocacy page on the wiki, and saw the getting involved in Unis part. I figured as a student I'd be able to shed some more light through my experiences. Getting involved in Unis - doing your course with free software - Andy K At the moment, you can't do it with fully free software (at least at Monash). Sometimes even required to use proprietary windows only software. - free software tools Sometimes actively encouraged, sometimes not permitted. Never seen it encouraged due to being free software, always another reason. Sometimes it gets mentioned that it's free software, though generally referred to as open source. - lab computer At Monash the IT lab computers dual boot windows and some distro I can't remember, but they keep that distro really out of date and don't even install dev tools on it in IT labs. One of my tutors last semester thinks it's so no one will use it so they won't have to support it. Given that, I'd expect active resistance to trying to get the tools we need on them. - are we focusing on unis or students? I think they tie together. You can target students through unis, for example a lug is starting at Monash Clayton soon, and hopefully we can do something about these issues around the uni, thus using students to target the uni. - requirements on submitting assignments - getting course requirements changed - Ben F: does MS office naively support ODF? I don't know, but you receive a list of formats you are allowed to submit in - for anything you would want to submit as odt it ranges from .doc only, pdf only or both. - course coordinators? Some could be sympathetic, but I see it being very difficult to get them to allow using fully free software. Allowing complete use of a free software operating system is more realistic for now. _______________________________________________ Free-software-melb mailing list Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au<mailto:Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au> http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/mailman/listinfo/free-software-melb
On 24 February 2012 11:27, Bianca Gibson <bianca.rachel.gibson@gmail.com> wrote:
- lab computer
At Monash the IT lab computers dual boot windows and some distro I can't remember, but they keep that distro really out of date and don't even install dev tools on it in IT labs. One of my tutors last semester thinks it's so no one will use it so they won't have to support it. Given that, I'd expect active resistance to trying to get the tools we need on them.
Do any courses/subjects require the use of Linux? If you can get a lecturer complaining to IT that the computers aren't suitable for their subject, it would help. I think. If Linux is not considered a requirement, then that is why they don't maintain it. -- Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au>
On 24 February 2012 12:03, Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au> wrote:
Do any courses/subjects require the use of Linux?
If you can get a lecturer complaining to IT that the computers aren't suitable for their subject, it would help. I think.
If Linux is not considered a requirement, then that is why they don't maintain it.
Hmm, I *think* I remember GNU/Linux being mentioned for the operating systems unit. I'll look into that. I'm not sure if they have specific lab/s for that unit, but even if they do it'd be good for the students of that unit to have it available in the 24 hour labs, and the lab that never has classes, so it's always accessible. They may just use VMs though, they used to have VM software on the lab computers. They recently did a fresh install of them all, apparently VM software isn't on there now. They did put the linux install back on them after initially not having it there, which implies there is a reason they have to install it. Matt Guica: "I think it's far more realistic to have a uni support free software on a proprietary OS than proprietary software on a free OS." I meant what students can run themselves on their own computers and still have the ability to complete their coursework and meet submission requirements without using any other computer, sorry for not being clear. I've also had trouble with one lecturer who didn't upload slides in anything other than pptx. That made reading diagrams in libre office....very 'interesting'. On the good side, for a project unit last semester I received help from my supervisor to put our project under the GPLv3 :). There was even one supervisor that set it as a condition of doing a project with him.
"I think it's far more realistic to have a uni support free software on a proprietary OS than proprietary software on a free OS." I meant what students can run themselves on their own computers and still have the ability to complete their coursework and meet submission requirements without using any other computer, sorry for not being clear.
Ah, then, yes I wholeheartedly agree. A student should be able to work in whatever operating system they wish. I don't feel it *should* be staff members' duty to provide support for shall we say "unusual" operating systems (although it would be great if they could), but at the very least, any student who is comfortable enough working with Linux or any other modern operating system should not be actively prevented from doing so. That's just a basic courtesy. But despite my accidentally countering a point you didn't make ... is it worthwhile coming up with a list and then perhaps a brochure and/or website with a recommended set of free applications for us to recommend to university administrators to install on standard images? What did people think of my list?
Ah, then, yes I wholeheartedly agree. A student should be able to work in whatever operating system they wish. I don't feel it *should* be staff members' duty to provide support for shall we say "unusual" operating systems (although it would be great if they could), but at the very least, any student who is comfortable enough working with Linux or any other modern operating system should not be actively prevented from doing so. That's just a basic courtesy.
But despite my accidentally countering a point you didn't make ... is it worthwhile coming up with a list and then perhaps a brochure and/or website with a recommended set of free applications for us to recommend to university administrators to install on standard images? What did people think of my list?
I'd add -vim -emacs -vlc -iced tea not java - parts of java are still proprietary, iced tea replaces
On 24 February 2012 15:11, Matt Giuca <matt.giuca@gmail.com> wrote: those -a separate debugger - haven't used them enough to know what to put on I think the list would be as useful as we make it - it depends on the number of people that are shown it and how it is used.
Seems to be a big improvement over when I went to RMIT. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 11:27:25AM +1100, Bianca Gibson wrote:
- doing your course with free software - Andy K
At the moment, you can't do it with fully free software (at least at Monash). Sometimes even required to use proprietary windows only software.
Same experience. It was mandatory that we purchased Microsoft Office for one of the projects I was working on that required MS Access. We also used Java extensively (which could not be considered free software at the time).
- free software tools
Sometimes actively encouraged, sometimes not permitted. Never seen it encouraged due to being free software, always another reason. Sometimes it gets mentioned that it's free software, though generally referred to as open source.
My lecturer at the time said it was "pedantic" to refer to software as "free software" or call the OS "GNU/Linux" and refused to do so. He has since been kind enough to organise a talk by RMS at RMIT though, so I do wonder if he still feels the same way. I also recall speaking with a different lecturer in my first year who was flat out against free software. He had a Mac and kept raving on about it. I mentioned I used a PC at some point in conversation and assumed I ran Windows, but when I explained to him that I used GNU/Linux he suddenly seemed a bit upset and said "ahh.. you're one of those hippie 'Linux' users that wants to give everything away and do us all out of a job". :/
- lab computer
At Monash the IT lab computers dual boot windows and some distro I can't remember, but they keep that distro really out of date and don't even install dev tools on it in IT labs. One of my tutors last semester thinks it's so no one will use it so they won't have to support it. Given that, I'd expect active resistance to trying to get the tools we need on them.
RMIT used Slackware for GNU/Linux studies, but it was limited to a single lab, and each student was expected to install it themselves (so the computers weren't readily in a usable state). I don't recall if these machines had public Internet access, but I suspect they did not. I also do not believe this lab was readily available to students outside of class like the other labs were. There was one lab room with machines running RedHat, but it was restricted to final year students, and even then you would be very lucky to ever find a free machine there. I put together a Gentoo install on a USB drive at the time, which I used to do my work on at the computers in the other lab areas without having to boot into Windows. One day, the helpdesk guys saw me on the security cameras there and they demanded that I shut it down. I asked whey, and they said it was against their computer policy, and that I circumvented their security. I asked how, since the computers were all USB-bootable by default, but I never got a useful answer. When I got home, I went through the IT policy published online and couldn't see anything about it. I further complained about this experience on my web page (hosted on my RMIT account) and linked to the policy in question. RMIT responded a week or so later by saying it was part of a different policy they had (just not one they published online anywhere apparently - something they just made up for all I know) and removed my complaint page from the server. They said it was offensive to all the staff and contractors at RMIT, even though I clearly explained what had happened and why I was upset.
- requirements on submitting assignments - getting course requirements changed - Ben F: does MS office naively support ODF?
I don't know, but you receive a list of formats you are allowed to submit in - for anything you would want to submit as odt it ranges from .doc only, pdf only or both.
At the time, assignment requirements had to be downloaded in .doc format. Initially I did not have a copy of MS Office, so used OpenOffice.org. Just as I was about to submit one of my assignment at uni, I used their computers (running MS Office) to re-check my assignment and the requirements list, and noticed that the entire last page of requirements had not rendered when I viewed it from OpenOffice.org at home, causing me to frantically finish off the parts I was previously unaware of before the deadline. In summary, it was extremely difficult trying to be a free software supporter while studying there. This was years ago so RMIT might be different now, but I have my doubts. -Adam
At the moment, you can't do it with fully free software (at least at Monash). Sometimes even required to use proprietary windows only software.
- free software tools
Sometimes actively encouraged, sometimes not permitted. Never seen it encouraged due to being free software, always another reason. Sometimes it gets mentioned that it's free software, though generally referred to as open source.
I guess you're right (about the reason not being explicitly free software). Our old Computer Science course at Melbourne Uni was pretty free-software-friendly. The Unix and C courses could be done entirely with free software -- we used Solaris at uni but ran GCC, Make, Bash, and so on. Certainly a core contingent of the staff were free software advocates. But we also had projects in Java (before it was free software) and some in Visio (eww). As for the wider university, I don't think they have ever had any kind of leaning towards free software -- computers around the campus all run Windows or Mac, as you would expect I suppose. In recent years, there has been a definite trend away from the old model, as our department has been folded in to Engineering, which is entirely Windows-based. The old Solaris machines (which were not free, but were at least teaching students skills compatible with free software) have been phased out and replaced with Windows machines, although we still teach C and Java using Eclipse (which are all free software). When I was teaching, I always made a conscious effort to help students get it working on Linux or other free software distributions (there are always 2 or 3 in a given semester). For our part, we did undertake an initiative to produce a weird mix of free software and "software as a service" for teaching -- I'd be interested to hear what the group thinks of this. Conscious of the move away from Unix, we wanted control over the software our students were using (particularly, Python), so we built a web-based Python learning environment ( http://www.ivle.org/). Fortunately, the professor who was in charge was a free software fan, so he put it under the GPL, and we run it on servers at the university. I wonder if this is good or bad for free software -- on the one hand, it is all free software (the server runs on Ubuntu, the entire application is GPL, and anybody can run their own instance). On the other hand, it kind of hides its "freeness" behind the web browser, so students don't really get exposed to the free software; they just see a web app. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Geoff Shaw <g.shaw@unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
At the university of Melbourne you can access the information futures report http://www.informationfutures.unimelb.edu.au/commission/reports
which states:
To deal with globalisation of education and its infrastructure we will: Leverage the opportunities offered by being part of a global collaborative community. 6. We will actively seek to participate in collaborative communities and partnerships that enable us to influence and leverage abilities beyond our means as an individual organisation. We will use open standards, open source and other open initiatives to ensure that we can effectively collaborate, 'trade' and re-use the work of whole communities. We will not invest in creating bespoke solutions that we could readily achieve in other ways or where they do not add unique and deep value to our mission.
The report online is dated 2008, but I believe it has been reiterated in a Dec 2011 update. So The University of Melbourne apparently encourages use of open source software!
Geoff
Wow, that really surprises me. I'm fairly confident that the university in no way practices what they preach. I don't know of any "open standards, open source [or] other open initiatives" anywhere in the university, besides initiatives taken by individual staff members such as our project. In particular, several years ago (probably 2006), the University jumped on the Blackboard bandwagon (which I understand pretty much all universities in the world use) -- the central "learning management system" is entirely proprietary software by Blackboard Inc, known for their patent lawsuits against other learning management systems. I know several staff members in our department who petitioned the university to use the open source Moodle instead, but apparently it fell on deaf ears. At Monash the IT lab computers dual boot windows and some distro I can't
remember, but they keep that distro really out of date and don't even install dev tools on it in IT labs. One of my tutors last semester thinks it's so no one will use it so they won't have to support it. Given that, I'd expect active resistance to trying to get the tools we need on them.
That's pretty good that they even support a Linux (I presume) distro. It is a pretty big call to ask IT departments to support two operating systems. For one thing, they need to be able to remotely upgrade the systems, which means they need to be turned on all the time -- it's hard to have a computer permanently booted into two operating systems. Also, it's probably kind of annoying for teachers and students to go into a lab, sit down, and have half the computers randomly booted into the "wrong" operating system, and having to wait to restart. (Where "wrong" is simply whichever operating system the class isn't supposed to be using for that lab.) - requirements on submitting assignments
- getting course requirements changed - Ben F: does MS office naively support ODF?
I don't know, but you receive a list of formats you are allowed to submit in - for anything you would want to submit as odt it ranges from .doc only, pdf only or both.
I think this is the most important -- students should not be forced to submit work in proprietary formats. PDF is the standard format for presenting documents, and it should be the standard format for submitting as well. Some could be sympathetic, but I see it being very difficult to get them to
allow using fully free software. Allowing complete use of a free software operating system is more realistic for now.
I think it's far more realistic to have a uni support free software on a proprietary OS than proprietary software on a free OS. As I said above, it's hard to manage two OSes on a machine. At least if our mission is to get them to install free software alongside other stuff on Windows, that is something that can be achieved on a program-by-program basis, and not requiring major infrastructure changes. Given that in any case, students will be unable to have administrator access, the underlying OS is less important than the software running on it. Perhaps a good set of applications to support would be: - Firefox or Chromium (I assume most university computers already have Firefox) - LibreOffice (helping justify the PDF or ODF submission assignment) - Eclipse with C, C++ and Java (for programming courses, or in general) - Python (same) - Gimp (for artwork) - Inkscape (same) - Blender (for modelling and animation courses) - OpenShot or Pitivi (for video editing, though admittedly, I have tried these and they are both very weak next to commercial offerings) The standard Engineering image at Unimelb includes several of the above (Firefox, Eclipse, Python, Gimp, not sure about LibreOffice/OpenOffice), so I guess that's a good start. Also it is perhaps helpful to point out to administrators who may not be aware that this software carries no installation or licensing costs, so it should be much easier to commit to even temporarily supporting any of the above software than it would be to commit to proprietary software.
participants (5)
-
Adam Bolte -
Bianca Gibson -
Brian May -
Geoff Shaw -
Matt Giuca