Hi Brianna,

Thanks for responding to my comment.  I have a few follow-up questions:

QUESTION ONE: Is the 50/50 goal realistic?

I raised the 50/50 goal because of comments such as this, which I've come across in many discussions:

"...then maybe it makes sense to give a damn about why half the population seems to be alienated from the cause."

From which I infer that the ultimate goal is to have equal numbers of men and women in our movement.  If we're not aiming at 50/50, then the phrase "half the population" is confusing.

So, do you mean that we should aim at 50/50 or not?

QUESTION TWO: What is a comfortable ratio for you?


You gave this example:

Let me tell you entirely sincerely, what makes me feel included is feeling that it's not unusual for me, a woman, to be part of a group.  That is, enough other women around that I never go to a meeting > 10 people and find myself the only woman. It's hard to feel you belong when there is little visible evidence that you do.

I'm going to express my understanding of this example to the best of my abilities, so please correct me if I get it wrong.

If we have a group of 11, I'll assume the following:

1 woman, 10 men >> uncomfortable
2 women, 9 men >> uncomfortable
3 women. 8 men >> uncomfortable
4 women, 7 men >> comfortable

Does that look right to you?  My gut feeling is that when more than a third of participants in a small group are women, the sense of being in a small minority is diminished.  But I really don't know, and I'd very much like to know what you think.

However, let's say we have a conference of 100.  Would you feel uncomfortable in the following circumstances:

10 women, 90 men?
20 women, 80 men?
30 women, 70 men?

My guess (it's only a guess!), from thinking through these numbers, is that many women in FOSS would like the ratio to be around 2:3, if 1:1 is not our aim.

Thanks again for contributing to this discussion.

Alex Garber



On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 19:12, Matt Giuca <matt.giuca@gmail.com> wrote:

The drastically lower rate of participation in free software suggests
that the free software community is worse behaving than society at
large.

Wait. You're operating under an unstated assumption that the only factor influencing the percentage of women in a particular community is how well the males in the community behaves towards women. That's a GIANT unproven assumption. This is a complex problem and there are undoubtedly many factors.

For example, maybe it is the case that women are naturally inclined, to some degree, towards a professional career in computing, but are much less inclined to pursue computing as a hobby. I'm not trying to put a case for that, but just suggest one possible explanation for this apparent gap between women in free software versus women in the software industry -- one that doesn't have anything to do with behaviour of the other people in the community.

Taking the rate of women's participation as a proxy for the happiness
of the ones there seems reasonable to me. So I don't think they are
such different questions.

That is, again, not a very good proxy. If we take a hypothetical example in a school where Grade 6P spontaneously starts a finger-knitting craze. It spreads within the class, but not so much outside the class. Now a couple of students from Grade 6S hear about it and also start finger-knitting. But it never really catches on in Grade 6S, because there isn't an "everyone else is doing it" mentality. Basically, finger-knitting is in the culture of Grade 6P but not in the culture of Grade 6S. However, there are still 3 or 4 students in Grade 6S that are doing it. They occasionally hang with the 6Pers at lunch time and they knit together. You could look at this situation and say "well only 5% of finger-knitters are from Grade 6S -- therefore, we must assume that Grade 6S people are generally unhappy with finger-knitting." But that's not true at all. The 3 or 4 Grade 6S students who are in the community are very happy indeed. They just haven't been able to convince many of their fellow 6Sers to join them, because it is not in the Grade 6S culture.

By way of analogy, I am trying to say that just because only a small percentage of a particular group is participating in some activity does not mean that the ones that are participating are unhappy. It also doesn't mean that, were that percentage to increase, that the ones already participating would become happier.

You seem to be unhappy that there aren't enough women in free software. If you are being genuinely offended because people are treating you differently as a woman, then that is a legitimate problem which should be addressed. But if you are merely unhappy because of the low numbers, then what I think some of us are trying to say is that it shouldn't matter: we're not here in our capacity as men and women, we're here to discuss and appreciate free software, and we should be able to do that without consideration of gender.

Matt

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